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	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t Optimize Payroll Deductions</title>
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	<description>personal finance blog with anecdotes, advice and commentary.</description>
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		<title>By: Hank</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-327195</link>
		<dc:creator>Hank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 01:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I personally like having something similar to a Christmas Bonus but in February when I get my income tax refund back after filing. It is really nice to have extra money that you weren&#039;t orginially expecting even though it is my own money to start with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally like having something similar to a Christmas Bonus but in February when I get my income tax refund back after filing. It is really nice to have extra money that you weren&#8217;t orginially expecting even though it is my own money to start with.</p>
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		<title>By: Sylvie66</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-301797</link>
		<dc:creator>Sylvie66</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:07:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-301797</guid>
		<description>I totally agree with BeefStooge - it&#039;s the principle of the matter. The US taxes overwhelmingly go to pay for programs that .... well, let&#039;s just say that I would reallocate the funds if it were my business! 
The key phrase in the devil&#039;s advocate piece is &quot;human behavior&quot;. For those of us who are frugal and informed, saving for our tax bill is just another business expense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with BeefStooge &#8211; it&#8217;s the principle of the matter. The US taxes overwhelmingly go to pay for programs that &#8230;. well, let&#8217;s just say that I would reallocate the funds if it were my business!<br />
The key phrase in the devil&#8217;s advocate piece is &#8220;human behavior&#8221;. For those of us who are frugal and informed, saving for our tax bill is just another business expense.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-70394</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-70394</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m one that agrees with Jimbo&#039;s thoughts on this.

If I have that money now (instead of April), I&#039;ll have that to better invest now.
Because of our earlier frugality (great credit, and high credit amounts available to use), we can use someone else&#039;s money to purchase investment properties and fix them up. Then resell them for a profit. The current one we&#039;ve put an offer on can yield us between $5,000 &amp; $20,000, depending upon what a buyer will pay for it. Keep in mind we aren&#039;t using any of our own money, just borrowing on 0% cards and such to use someone else&#039;s money for a small price of $75 or so (to borrow $30,000 in one case).
Let&#039;s see, spend none of our own money (yes, I include the balance transfer fees in my calculations), and get between $5,000 - $20,000 in a 6 month timeframe. Admittedly these situations don&#039;t occur often.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m one that agrees with Jimbo&#8217;s thoughts on this.</p>
<p>If I have that money now (instead of April), I&#8217;ll have that to better invest now.<br />
Because of our earlier frugality (great credit, and high credit amounts available to use), we can use someone else&#8217;s money to purchase investment properties and fix them up. Then resell them for a profit. The current one we&#8217;ve put an offer on can yield us between $5,000 &amp; $20,000, depending upon what a buyer will pay for it. Keep in mind we aren&#8217;t using any of our own money, just borrowing on 0% cards and such to use someone else&#8217;s money for a small price of $75 or so (to borrow $30,000 in one case).<br />
Let&#8217;s see, spend none of our own money (yes, I include the balance transfer fees in my calculations), and get between $5,000 &#8211; $20,000 in a 6 month timeframe. Admittedly these situations don&#8217;t occur often.</p>
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		<title>By: jimbo</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-65252</link>
		<dc:creator>jimbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-65252</guid>
		<description>DA to the DA...

Perhaps the interest earned on a regular bank savings account is not worth the risk of over estimating withholding allowances. And it maybe it&#039;s not a big deal to loan Uncle Sam the money free of charge for a year or so.

However....

Given the abysmal deflation of the dollar recently, even if I get back all my excess witholding in refunds, I loose purchasing power both to inflation and currency deflation. Ironically, It&#039;s Uncle Sam who makes those same dollars worth less at the end of the year with his free-spending government fiscal policies. What&#039;s the present value of those dollars received a year from now, factoring in both inflation *and* currency devaluation caused by Fed policies designed to benefit and protect Uncle Sam and his spiraling debt?

The sooner I can get those dollars and invest them in hard assets with a chance of appreciation, the better. Heck, if my assets just hold value I&#039;m ahead of the game. If Uncle Sam holds my dollars, he gives me back dollars that are worth less than when he took them. 

So, my real gain is my not only return I earn on my investments, but also preservation of spending power. If I can invest these dollars for long-term capital gains, I pay less tax than cited in the example. Futhermore, if I utilize some of the fantastic personal retirement investment vechicles (Roth IRA&#039;s, solo K&#039;s, etc), then I can potentially invest these dollars at *zero* taxable gains! 

Consequently, If I get all my excess withholding dollars back via a tax refund, I suffer loss. I hate loosing money! Even if it&#039;s a few hundred dollars gained by getting those dollars now rather than later, It&#039;s worth it to me. Maybe it&#039;s just the principle of the whole thing.

Just the other side chiming in....

Jimbo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DA to the DA&#8230;</p>
<p>Perhaps the interest earned on a regular bank savings account is not worth the risk of over estimating withholding allowances. And it maybe it&#8217;s not a big deal to loan Uncle Sam the money free of charge for a year or so.</p>
<p>However&#8230;.</p>
<p>Given the abysmal deflation of the dollar recently, even if I get back all my excess witholding in refunds, I loose purchasing power both to inflation and currency deflation. Ironically, It&#8217;s Uncle Sam who makes those same dollars worth less at the end of the year with his free-spending government fiscal policies. What&#8217;s the present value of those dollars received a year from now, factoring in both inflation *and* currency devaluation caused by Fed policies designed to benefit and protect Uncle Sam and his spiraling debt?</p>
<p>The sooner I can get those dollars and invest them in hard assets with a chance of appreciation, the better. Heck, if my assets just hold value I&#8217;m ahead of the game. If Uncle Sam holds my dollars, he gives me back dollars that are worth less than when he took them. </p>
<p>So, my real gain is my not only return I earn on my investments, but also preservation of spending power. If I can invest these dollars for long-term capital gains, I pay less tax than cited in the example. Futhermore, if I utilize some of the fantastic personal retirement investment vechicles (Roth IRA&#8217;s, solo K&#8217;s, etc), then I can potentially invest these dollars at *zero* taxable gains! </p>
<p>Consequently, If I get all my excess withholding dollars back via a tax refund, I suffer loss. I hate loosing money! Even if it&#8217;s a few hundred dollars gained by getting those dollars now rather than later, It&#8217;s worth it to me. Maybe it&#8217;s just the principle of the whole thing.</p>
<p>Just the other side chiming in&#8230;.</p>
<p>Jimbo</p>
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		<title>By: moominoid</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-64137</link>
		<dc:creator>moominoid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jan 2007 00:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-64137</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t fine tune my with-holding for all the reasons mentioned here. In fact I apparently have my with-holding set at zero exemptions. This year I expect that even so I might end up paying additional tax in April for the first time. Is there a way of with-holding even more tax? Or do I need to go to estimated tax payments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t fine tune my with-holding for all the reasons mentioned here. In fact I apparently have my with-holding set at zero exemptions. This year I expect that even so I might end up paying additional tax in April for the first time. Is there a way of with-holding even more tax? Or do I need to go to estimated tax payments?</p>
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		<title>By: mbhunter</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-57070</link>
		<dc:creator>mbhunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 08:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-57070</guid>
		<description>You can use excess withholding to offset the need to pay quarterly self-employment tax, too.  It gives you a cushion if you find out that you have to file Schedule SE of form 1040.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can use excess withholding to offset the need to pay quarterly self-employment tax, too.  It gives you a cushion if you find out that you have to file Schedule SE of form 1040.</p>
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		<title>By: BeefStooge</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-56679</link>
		<dc:creator>BeefStooge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-56679</guid>
		<description>Funny....I posted something on upping my W-4 about 2 minutes before I read this.  I think your points are though provoking and have some validity, but...

While it is true isn&#039;t that much money, I&#039;d counter that by saying that to me it&#039;s the principle more than the amount.  In other words, I don&#039;t like the fact that they have the money and I don&#039;t, whether it&#039;s $25 or $25,000.

As far as your other points go, I feel that successful personal finance boils down to information, behavior, and discipline more than anything else.  I won&#039;t &quot;mess it up&quot; so long as I&#039;m informed, it will not help me to &quot;live leaner&quot; because I am already disciplined, and they don&#039;t need to &quot;save it for me&quot; because my behavior dictates that I&#039;m a saver to begin with.

Keep it up!  It&#039;s always great to hear the other side of anything!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny&#8230;.I posted something on upping my W-4 about 2 minutes before I read this.  I think your points are though provoking and have some validity, but&#8230;</p>
<p>While it is true isn&#8217;t that much money, I&#8217;d counter that by saying that to me it&#8217;s the principle more than the amount.  In other words, I don&#8217;t like the fact that they have the money and I don&#8217;t, whether it&#8217;s $25 or $25,000.</p>
<p>As far as your other points go, I feel that successful personal finance boils down to information, behavior, and discipline more than anything else.  I won&#8217;t &#8220;mess it up&#8221; so long as I&#8217;m informed, it will not help me to &#8220;live leaner&#8221; because I am already disciplined, and they don&#8217;t need to &#8220;save it for me&#8221; because my behavior dictates that I&#8217;m a saver to begin with.</p>
<p>Keep it up!  It&#8217;s always great to hear the other side of anything!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Foobarista</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-56597</link>
		<dc:creator>Foobarista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 06:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-56597</guid>
		<description>I disagree, particularly in our case.  If you&#039;re self-employed, paying quarterly payments is a royal pain.  We tweak my salary withholding to hit the safe-harbor rules in the first quarter and set aside 33% of my wife&#039;s SE income in a special savings account that we use to pay taxes due.  Anything left in the savings account is our &quot;refund&quot; - once we&#039;ve paid taxes, we use the rest to round out previous year&#039;s retirement account funding (Roth, SE401K, etc).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree, particularly in our case.  If you&#8217;re self-employed, paying quarterly payments is a royal pain.  We tweak my salary withholding to hit the safe-harbor rules in the first quarter and set aside 33% of my wife&#8217;s SE income in a special savings account that we use to pay taxes due.  Anything left in the savings account is our &#8220;refund&#8221; &#8211; once we&#8217;ve paid taxes, we use the rest to round out previous year&#8217;s retirement account funding (Roth, SE401K, etc).</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-56568</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 03:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-56568</guid>
		<description>I would add to the analysis some kind of consideration about timing: since you withhold throughout the year, you shoud calculate the lost interest on an average balance, not year end.  Other than that, thanks for reading the comments!  Keep up the great worth (especially wrt this series: more wisdom here than many of your fellow bloggers might recognize).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would add to the analysis some kind of consideration about timing: since you withhold throughout the year, you shoud calculate the lost interest on an average balance, not year end.  Other than that, thanks for reading the comments!  Keep up the great worth (especially wrt this series: more wisdom here than many of your fellow bloggers might recognize).</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-56563</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 02:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-56563</guid>
		<description>The 401k one is on tap, don&#039;t you worry... :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The 401k one is on tap, don&#8217;t you worry&#8230; <img src='http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Tricia</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-56560</link>
		<dc:creator>Tricia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 02:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-56560</guid>
		<description>Jim - Yes!  Yes!  I second the &quot;Don&#039;t invest in your 401(k)&quot; idea :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim &#8211; Yes!  Yes!  I second the &#8220;Don&#8217;t invest in your 401(k)&#8221; idea <img src='http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: CPA1298</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-56538</link>
		<dc:creator>CPA1298</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 01:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-56538</guid>
		<description>I love the Devil&#039;s Advocate series; keep it up.  I&#039;ve made the arguments before about renting and cranking up withholding, and nearly got punched by my friends and co-workers.  People get simple ideas pounded into their heads and won&#039;t listen to new ideas.  The withholdings argument made even more sense a couple years ago, when CDs were returning 2%.

How about this for a topic - &quot;Don&#039;t invest in your 401(k) plan&quot;

1) The match is overrated - many people don&#039;t stay at their jobs long enough to vest.
2) The money is tied up, and unavailable for important stuff like paying down unforeseen consumer debt, etc.
3) Most 401(k) plans&#039; fund choices are not optimal
4) (worst of all) You&#039;re converting gains that would be long-term capital gains into ordinary income.  And, when you die, there is no step-up in basis; your kids will pay ordinary income rates instead of inheriting the stocks at their fair market value on the date of death (as would be the case in a taxable account).

Anyway, you have a great blog and great post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the Devil&#8217;s Advocate series; keep it up.  I&#8217;ve made the arguments before about renting and cranking up withholding, and nearly got punched by my friends and co-workers.  People get simple ideas pounded into their heads and won&#8217;t listen to new ideas.  The withholdings argument made even more sense a couple years ago, when CDs were returning 2%.</p>
<p>How about this for a topic &#8211; &#8220;Don&#8217;t invest in your 401(k) plan&#8221;</p>
<p>1) The match is overrated &#8211; many people don&#8217;t stay at their jobs long enough to vest.<br />
2) The money is tied up, and unavailable for important stuff like paying down unforeseen consumer debt, etc.<br />
3) Most 401(k) plans&#8217; fund choices are not optimal<br />
4) (worst of all) You&#8217;re converting gains that would be long-term capital gains into ordinary income.  And, when you die, there is no step-up in basis; your kids will pay ordinary income rates instead of inheriting the stocks at their fair market value on the date of death (as would be the case in a taxable account).</p>
<p>Anyway, you have a great blog and great post.</p>
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		<title>By: Debt Hater</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-56519</link>
		<dc:creator>Debt Hater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-56519</guid>
		<description>I ratcheted up my W4 withholdings when I started my new job specifically because of the advice that getting a big refund in April is just you getting back some of the free loan you gave Uncle Sam.
Now reading this, I&#039;m a little nervous!
I know I didn&#039;t save whatever I withheld from the government, I used it to pay down debt (or sometimes not) and now I&#039;m not so sure it was a good idea. Oh well, I&#039;ll find out and change my W4 if necessary. Thanks for the post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I ratcheted up my W4 withholdings when I started my new job specifically because of the advice that getting a big refund in April is just you getting back some of the free loan you gave Uncle Sam.<br />
Now reading this, I&#8217;m a little nervous!<br />
I know I didn&#8217;t save whatever I withheld from the government, I used it to pay down debt (or sometimes not) and now I&#8217;m not so sure it was a good idea. Oh well, I&#8217;ll find out and change my W4 if necessary. Thanks for the post!</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-56495</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-56495</guid>
		<description>Just showing the other side... that&#039;s all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just showing the other side&#8230; that&#8217;s all.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisCPA</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html/comment-page-1#comment-56473</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisCPA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/dont-optimize-payroll-deductions.html#comment-56473</guid>
		<description>That is why you are here, Jim, to show us all how to keep that extra money we get on our paychecks by spending wisely, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is why you are here, Jim, to show us all how to keep that extra money we get on our paychecks by spending wisely, right?</p>
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