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How Debt Settlement Works

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List of Credit Card Debt Everything I’ve ever read about debt settlement has been extremely negative and, for the most part, ugly. It’s because debt settlement is designed for people in very dire circumstances.

A friend of mine recently got into the debt settlement business since he was working with a lot of individuals in weak financial situations. We spent the better part of three hours discussing how debt settlement worked, why debt settlement made sense to some people, and why the business had such a bad reputation. My friend is a stand-up guy, I trust him, and so it was refreshing to hear about the business, warts and all.

In this Foundation series article, I hope to pass on some of that knowledge to you.

Disclaimer: I’m not in the debt settlement business, I’m a personal finance blogger. I know debt settlement is fraught with scams, frauds, and other unsavory characters and so I’m writing this for educational purposes only. I’m not advocating anyone use debt settlement and I cannot guarantee the accuracy of anything in this article because I’ve never been through the process.

Please consult a lawyer and an accountant before making any decisions based on the information you read here.

How Debt Settlement Works

Here, in a nutshell, is how debt settlement typically works.

Who It’s For

You are behind on your debts and you are seriously considering bankruptcy as a way of getting yourself back on track. Bankruptcy itself is generally considered the nuclear option because it’s a mark that stays on your credit history for 7-10 years, depending on which one you declare. As you can see, debt settlement is not for someone who is a little behind on a debt they can otherwise manage. It’s for people in a difficult spot and looking for an option other than bankruptcy.

It’s generally believed that the debt settlement process can help you save 40-60% on your debts and the costs are approximately 15% your total debts. These are just ballpark figures I’ve pulled from across the web, some of which are offered by debt settlement companies, so your personal experience may differ.

Debt Settlement Process:

  • The Setup: When you work with a debt settlement company, you stop paying your creditors and start paying into a trust account set up by the debt settlement company. Part of your payments goes towards fees and part of it goes towards an account that will then be used to pay off your creditors after negotiation.
  • The Dark Waiting Period: The missed payments begin appearing on your credit history, your credit score drops, and creditors start calling you. Creditors typically write off debts that are over 180 days late, so as that date nears they become more and more anxious.
    In addition to waiting for the creditors to get anxious, you have to wait for your trust fund’s balance to get high enough to pay down negotiated debts.
  • Collections/Negotiation: At some point, the creditor will sell the debt to collections agencies for less than the debt itself. It’s somewhere at this point that the negotiation begins and it can start to get a little complicated so I’ll use an example:

    Let’s say you owe $1,000. The creditor knows they can sell a debt to a collections company for $200, taking a $800 loss on the debt. If a negotiator says they would be willing to pay $500 to “settle” it, the creditor will probably take it. They get $500, rather than $200 for selling it to collections.

    If it does go to collections, the collections agency bought it for $200 so they would gladly take an amount above $200 because it means they generated a profit off the bad debt.

Why The Bad Reputation?

Like with everything dealing with money, there are always scams. Debt settlement companies want to be the interface between you and the creditors, so they can negotiate down the debts. The problem with this process is that once communication stops, you can never be sure the debt settlement company is doing what they are promising. If they are simply collecting your money and not doing a thing, it’s very difficult for you to know. The best option for you is to review ratings with the Better Business Bureau, but even that is not guarantee.

Another reason they get a bad reputation is because debt settlement companies are expensive. They have to pay for the trust account, lawyers, and other administrative staff to manage the entire process, and we all know lawyers are not cheap! You’ll have to pay setup costs, monthly fees, and lots of other fees. This is where you really need to be diligent in reviewing what goes towards fees.

Risks of Debt Settlement

Beyond the risk that you’ll be ripped off, there’s always the risk that creditors won’t negotiate with a negotiator. As you stop making payments, the late fees and the interest and everything else piles up. It may get to the point where it will make sense for the creditor to sue you and demand that your wages be garnished.

Your credit score will fall. There’s no way around it. You will miss, by design, payments to creditors and they’ll report those missed payments to the credit bureaus. You’ll get 180+ day late marks, records indicating your debts went into collections will appear, and your score will plummet. If your score was already low because you were missing payments already, then the impact of this will be much lower. The reason why debt settlement is so appealing is because if you’re seriously considering it, chances are your credit is already lowered.

You Can Do This Yourself

In theory, you can negotiate and settle your debts yourself. With the recession, creditors know that people are in tough spots and you may be able to call up your creditors and negotiate down your debts. If you’ve missed a few payments to your credit card, the company might be anxious to salvage whatever they can from your account. Just know that if you succeed, your account will be closed.

In practice, it’s very difficult because you aren’t a lawyer. As much research as you may do, as much as I have personally read, it’s still a cat and mouse game to be played and neither one of us has experience in that arena. Also, creditors may not be interested in negotiating with individuals. However, it never hurts to call and try it for yourself, right?

Alternatives to Debt Settlement

Seek credit counseling. Credit counseling is something that people must attend if they want to declare bankruptcy and it’s something you may want to consider to help get you back on track. Credit counselors can help you repay your debts, rather than seek bankruptcy or debt settlement.

Bankruptcy. It’s an ugly word but it’s an alternative to debt settlement. The downside of bankruptcy is that it stays on your credit report for 7-10 years but generally it’s a more structured process with less fraudulent behavior involved. You will still have to pay fees, this time to credit counseling and bankruptcy lawyers, so it’s not a no-cost option.

Finding A Reputable Debt Settlement Company

I don’t know the answer to this but Todd Ossenfort, the Credit Guy at CreditCards.com advises that you choose a company that:

  • Is accredited by The Association of Settlement Companies (TASC)
  • Has certified debt arbitrators
  • Has reasonable fees (shop around)
  • Has a service guarantee
  • Discloses what is included in your debt settlement program, including fees
  • Is a member of the Better Business Bureau or area Chamber of Commerce
  • Is licensed and bonded in your state, if so required

Do you have any personal experiences with debt settlement companies? If so, I would love to hear your feedback about the process. If you have any words of advice, things to watch for, or see errors in this post, please let me know!

(Photo: pumpkinjuice)

This post was included in the 5th Best of Money Carnival at Gather Little By Little.

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32 Responses to “How Debt Settlement Works”

  1. When one establishes the trust the interest and penalties still keep on piling on the debt, if its credit card debt they can be huge… Lets say it was $10,000 in credit card debt. Default rates are north of 25%, say 30% and penalties and late fess… If it takes a year to negotiate this mat still turn out to be a bad deal for many… I think this comes very close to the bankruptcy option.

  2. Well covered, you even hit the darksides.

    Theres’s an even bigger caveat on debt settlement arrangements though. Most people fail to complete them as scheduled, or even at all. That’s what I’ve seen in reviewing 1000s of credit reports over the past 20+ years. (For the record, I don’t work in debt settlement either so all I know is the end result.)

    No statistics here, only the awareness that in the real world abandoning the plans is quite common, while successful completion is rare in comparison.

    In theory, debt settlement is doable and debtors entering in to them is fairly common. The problem is that under the arrangements, you still have to make payments, and the single monthly payment to the agency is often not much lower than what you pay in with all of your debts in combination. So a lot of people start them, but find after a few months that they’re no better off then when dealing with the banks themselves.

    The corrolary to this is that once you abandon the program, you’re credit is virtually nuked. Jim, you’re correct that people usually have weak credit going in, but if they fail to complete the plan, their credit is far worse.

    The best results are for people working with the non-profit Consumer Credit Counseling Services (CCCS). Though the success rate even there probably doesn’t hit 50%, though again I have no hard statistics.

    • Damon Day says:

      Hey Kevin,

      The reality is that for most settlement companies the success rate is less than 20%. And a lot of the really bad ones, the success rates can be down in the 1 to 2% range, seriously.

      A few months back their was a scam outfit out of Florida, that was shut down. When their books were opened up,it was revealed that only about 400 clients out of about 40,000 actually completed the program. That wasn’t a misprint, only about 1%.

      You really need to do your homework before signing up with a settlement program, especially the ones that want all their fees up front. Those usually have the highest dropout rate.

  3. MC says:

    debt settlement is a good option for people swimming in debt but this article was incorrect in one thing. Creditors do not alway sell their debt … in that case the settlements allowed by whatever agency has the debt may be more limited. instead of settling for 20,30 or 40% it might be more like 60-80 just depending on the hardship, etc. … Credit counseling companies can get people in more trouble if they’re not careful about getting the facts up front because those companies typically pay themselves their fee before paying the creditors anything, which means more interest & fees are accruing, its sitting on the credit bureau with no payments and could be forwarded for legal action before they get a payment. Also creditors are under no obligation to accept thier offers. Not to say they are all bad, just be careful and make sure you are aware of what is going on as you are ultimately responsible. People CAN DO that negotiating themselves & pay no fees to a counselor, as long as they understand how to negotiate and it also helps to have a lump sum available to offer ‘right now’. Sometimes they may split a settlement.. maybe into 3 payments, maybe something different. The important thing if you negotiate yourself is to have them fax you the offer or mail you the letter so you have it in writing, and then make sure you stick to the agreement. One payment arriving late, or one check bouncing could void the entire settlement and then whatever you paid is just applied to the balance.

  4. MC–Outstanding points. Debt settlement plans arent’t legally binding on the creditors in the way bankruptcy is, so the arrangements can have unexpected outcomes.

    One caveat though on the do-it-yourself approach–it isn’t for the faint of heart. You’ll be an amateur going up against collection department/agency pros, some of whom may be attorneys. If you do go this route, be sure to get EVERY agreement in writing, and never send money before written notification is in hand.

    Moral of the story is that when you’re deep in debt there are different options, but none of them are pleasant. If anyone tells you otherwise you’re radar needs to operating at maximum level.

    • MC says:

      That is very true, negotiating for yourself isn’t for the faint of heart. Some collectors can be harsh and/or rigid, and still within the letter of the law. (I would recommend staying as calm and unemotionally involved as possible if you choose to negotiate yourself. If you don’t think you can do so, perhaps you have a spouse who could in which case you should have them handle it. Depending on your state you may have to give the creditor/agency permission to speak to your spouse). Outside of strictly settlements, in the current economy some creditors are offering different programs such as interest waivers or reductions, etc and will be willing to put you on a payment plan paying just on what is currently owed as long as it is within their guidelines for the program… not everyone qualifies but it can’t hurt to ask. And yes, getting everything in writing is a must, as the burden of proof is on the consumer if something goes awry. You may have had a verbal agreement and set everything up over the phone but with no documentation to back that up, you could end up right back where you started or deeper in the hole.

  5. MC–You made another outstanding point in that the burden of proof is on the consumer. I don’t think most people are aware of that because it’s the opposite of what we’re taught about criminal law, where the burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the accused.

    That extends to credit reports too. Any erroneous information on it will be the consumers responsibility to correct. There’s something inherently wrong with that, but that’s the way it is right now.

    This is a great thread, how come only three of us are on it???

    • Jim says:

      I’m here. :)

      Technically, on credit reports, it’s the responsibility of the bureau to get the information correct if you dispute it. The only exception appears to be in the case of personal information, such as your current and former residences, your social security number, and other personal details not connected to a particular account. Otherwise, they request that the creditor confirm the account or they remove it.

      • You’re correct if it’s a dormant account. The credit reporting company sends a letter to the creditor, and if they don’t respond within 30 days(if memory serves) the account is dropped.

        However if it’s an account where the creditor reports late payments, past due balances, collections or any other derogatory information, the burden of proof is on the consumer if the information is in error. The credit reporting company can only report what the creditors report to them(except on dormant accounts as described above).

        It’s up to the consumer to dispute the derogatory information directly with the creditor, and if successful, the creditor should remove the strike(s) from the credit report. Success rates are very high if you have written evidence, like canceled checks, that the creditor is wrong, but on rare occasion the consumer has to resort to legal action.

        We have to remember that credit reports exist for lenders, not for consumers.

        • Jim says:

          True, in the case of an active account, the creditor is confirming the error and then it’s on you to prove it’s not true. I think that’s a fair system, even if creditor confirm information they didn’t actually confirm (just sending form letters back), and better than not being able to dispute things.

  6. jillianlou says:

    You should mention that there is a tax implication to forgiven debt (which is what a settlement is). You have to claim any amount that the company forgives as income on your tax returns.

    • MC says:

      There is a tax implication, but it only applies to anything OVER $600… You will receive a 1099 form for anything forgiven over that amount and you have to report it on taxes.

      • jillianlou says:

        They only send you a 1099 if it’s over $600. But TECHNICALLY you are supposed to report it whether you receive a 1099 or not…

    • Damon Day says:

      Most people that are in bad enough shape to contemplate a settlement process, are insolvent. ie. their liabilities outweigh their assets. IRS publication 908 explains the insolvency rule.

      How it applies to debt settlement is: when you add up all of your liabilities (credit card debt, neg equity on home, car loan etc) and all of your assets (bank accounts, investments, positive equity on home etc), if you owe for example, 50K more than your assets add up to, then you have a 50K negative net worth and are insolvent by that amount.

      If you owe 50K on credit cards and 25K is forgiven, you will not be liable for tax on the 25K that is forgiven because you are insolvent by 50K. So you could have up to 50K of debt forgiven before a tax liability kicked in. (Note- as the debt is forgiven it reduces your liabilities and therefore the total amount that you are insolvent by.)

      DISCLAIMER – this is a simplified example and doesn’t take numerous factors into account. I am not a tax attorney and cannot give tax advice. Make sure to consult with a tax professional to determine what, if any tax liability you may have in your specific situation.

  7. MC says:

    There could be a way out of claiming that on your taxes if you can prove you were insolvent before the settlement was finalized. If you choose to do that, you will need to request a form 982 from the IRS (and instructions).

  8. Damon Day says:

    Most debt settlement companies do charge clients more than they really need to. However the main problem lies when you hire a company that is not only charging you a lot, but wants you to pay most or all of their fees upfront.

    Not only does this put the client in a liability situation with no incentive left for the company to do a good job, but even more crucial is that it prevents the client from settling with any creditors within a reasonable time frame. With certain creditors, some of the best settlement deals that you can get are actually with the original creditor. If a client is spending 10 months to a year paying a settlement company its fees, then some of those good deals are long gone before the client can even get a settlement.

    If you are in a situation where you need settlement and you do not want to go at it alone, make sure that you research many companies and hire one that is performance based and charges fees based on what they save you in the end, not up front based on your total debt.

    Because of the very high drop out rate in the settlement industry most companies want all the money up front. That is a huge red flag in my opinion. Companies that charge their fees on the back end are hard to find, but if you do a lot of digging you can find them.

  9. MB1 says:

    Even with all the fraudulent companies giving the entire debt settlement industry a bad name, there are a few responsible companies out there that actually have thier clients best interest at heart. I recently did some consulting work for DMB Financial in Boston, and they are one such company. DMB — one of only 22 TASC accredited debt settlement companies in the US — is performance based, meaning that they make nothing until they have actually settled a debt (they take 25% of the savings amount). I also found that the company strives to educate clients and callers about the pros and cons of debt settlement at every opportunity, and frequently offer callers advice on how to help themselves out of their debt problems. For many facing possible bankruptcy, debt settlement companies such as DMB have proven to be a beneficial solution.

  10. MB1–That’s a good point, there are some good debt settlement companies out there. Earlier in the thread I listed CCCS as another example.

    The problem is that when people are deep in debt, and the collectors are calling and threatening, they look for any port in a storm. Right now a lot of companies are running pretty convincing ads, and if your back is up against the wall, you’ll be tempted.

    If the situation is stressful enough, researching for trusted companies often goes out the window in favor of a compelling ad campaign that looks for all the world to be exactly what you need.

    • MB1 says:

      I completely agree Kevin. Many of these ads aren’t even coming from debt settlement companies, they are merely referral services which will then take the leads and sell them to a settlement company which may or may not be offering what the ad promises. “Buyer Beware” certainly holds true here, and the key for people with debt problems is to do their research and select a company that has a proven track record of responsible debt settlement practices.

  11. Karachi Fun says:

    Right now a lot of companies are running pretty convincing ads, and if your back is up against the wall, you’ll be tempted.

  12. Momo says:

    Just saw an ad on TV for a debt settlement company. Part of the voiceover said, “Don’t ruin your credit report with bankruptcy!” They made it sound like settling your debt wasn’t going to affect your report negatively. This screams “SCAM” to me.

    BTW, if the settlement company takes 25% of the savings, then if you even get 50% off, in the end it’s only 25%. Is it really even worth it to bother with these companies? It seems like everyone wants a piece of the pie of a person who is already drowning. Talk about offering a lifesaver to a drowning man but demanding payment first.

    • Damon Day says:

      Hello Momo,

      I am not commenting on whether or not 25% of savings is to high or to low. In my opinion it is high, but just to run the numbers. For someone in the right situation to where debt settlement is the best option to avoid BK. Lets say they owe 50K.

      What many people forget to tell consumers is that the balances will inflate while saving the money to pay the settlements. So lets say that the 50k goes to 60K.

      If they can settle that for 50% or 30K and the company charges 25% of savings, that would be 25% of 30K (7500). So that would be a total payback of $37500 over say 2 years.

      To answer whether or not it is worth it, that depends on each individual. Remember if you owe 50K on credit cards, you don’t actually owe 50K. If you are making min payments of $1250, then you actually owe the future value of $1250 payments over however many months it will take you to pay off. So you will probably end up paying more like 100K if you just kept making payments, and it may take you 5 or 10 years (again depending on your payments and your interest rates).

      So yes, settlement does make sense for Certain people in Certain situations. In the example above even with a high fee like 25% of savings the client is probably saving more like 62,000 and shaving many years off of the debt. So you can’t look at it like you owed 50K and paid back 37500 so you only saved 12500.

      Again not arguing the merits and saying you should settle your debts. But if you don’t have the money to do a debt roll up (snowball) or you can’t afford the payments with consumer credit counseling, and you can’t qualify for Ch. 7 or don’t want to file BK, then settlement is something to look at as a potential option.

      Last, there is no rule that you do have to hire a company to do it for you. This is a personal preference, some people just go for it, also there are programs available for much less money that teach consumers to do this themselves. The important thing is to research all options before doing anything.

  13. reggy says:

    good points

  14. janet says:

    Thank you so much for looking into this, I emailed you regarding these programs and your research was much needed, as I wish I had knew more about them before I signed up.

    I figured it was either enter a DMP or file for bankruptcy, now I wish I would have filed.
    Thanks Again for the articles.

  15. Rebecca H says:

    I am so thankful for all of the information posted here. I am currently revieweing the paperwork with a local CCC Service, there are only two in my state, NH, I was told the Money Management International co was under the same ‘umbrella’ and I am waiting to do a phone session my application is received. In the preliminary paperwork including the auth to obtain a creidt report there is no mention of the actual cost for their services. This concerns me. I have roughly 7 K in creditg card debt and a car I would like to keep.I am employed, but not able to make my payments after job elimination I was moved ot a position with no OT, and have lost nearly 500 a month and I make only 28k …. I am the idiot and part of the problem and feel constant anxiety, shame and a huge loss of self esteem…
    I have considered liquidating my measly 401k, I will not be allowed ot contribute again at work but I may be able to obtain 3k to at least send everyone 250 bucks. I feel like a 38 yr old LOSER. I have noone help resources etc and no kids as exuses for my spending ecisions I made based oin OT earnings. IDIOT

  16. LM says:

    Okay – my 2 cents: I owed approximately $15K on 6 cards. I used Halo Debt Solutions (Texas). Their Fee was 10% total. They took $250 up front and the rest in monthly payments. I set up an account to put money into and they could take out only the monthly fee. All the debts. settled – they did all the negotiating for between 40-60% of the amount owed. It took a while, but it worked. They were courteous, tenacious and kept in very close contact with me. I the 1099′s from the card companies. It worked for me. I am now debt. free!

    One thing I would suggest is getting caller ID. That way, I just didn’t answer any calls from people I did not know. If there were important calls, people would leave a message. The CC companies usually did not, or left tape recorded messages which I easily deleted. It was a welcome relief. Capital One sent my accounts to Collection Agencies very quickly – so we ended up settling with them instead of the card companies, and the 1099s came from them.

    For what it’s worth.

    LM

  17. MC says:

    I am in the process of considering doing this. Your article was right on point. I owe 50K on 6 credit cards. I negotiated with them all and was able to get my late fees waved and all accounts are now closed and are in debt relief programs. The problem is for me to be debt free in 3 years my monthly payments would be $1500.00 a month. That’s not doable. I contacted a company recommended by cnn.money.com and here’s what they proposed. They estimated that they could negotiate my 50k down to 30K. The fees are $500.00 up front retainer. then my monthly payments to them that goes into an escrow account would by $686.00 a month. Out of that $8600 goes for fees and after 6-8 months when the creditors start getting nervous and you have enough money in your account then bargaining may begin but there is no hard formula or guarantee on the date. Yes this is expensive but in 4 years or less depending on the settlements I would be debt free. Also a word of caution. Watch out if you bank with the same company as your card. I bank with chase and have 2 of their cards. The bank may freeze your accounts and then things can really get ugly. Also the debt settlement company offers no legal protection against lawsuits. You are on your own there. Lastly you can Google “The 14 questions you should ask a debt settlement company”. This was helpful so you know what your getting into.

  18. Damon Day says:

    Hello MC,
    Who is this debt settlement company that is being recommended by cnn.money.com? Their fee is extremely high at 17% of your total debt. Certainly much higher than it needs to be. If you look around, you can learn how to negotiate with your creditors directly and save all that money, or you can find some reputable performance based programs that will get you the desired results for half of that price. It would certainly pay to not make any quick decisions.

  19. DAN says:

    Screw them, just don’t pay or file bankruptsy. Regardless what they tell you there is VERY LITTLE they can actually do. Just don’t let them intimidate you. Go change all bank accounts so they do not know where any money is. Unless you own considerable assets there is little for them to gain. In florida I have 4 judgements against me and have not paid one cent. First to levy and seize car they have to pay sheriffs dept $1500.00 fee ,non refundable and hope someone shows up at sale that will pay more. That is if it is paid for in the first place. If they want othe stuff tv, washing maching etc it cost them a $2500.00 fee to sheriffs dept. Good luck recouping that on used furniture!!

    I was forced into retirement with $80,000 debt. No way to pay that. I only recieve SS and state ret. check, but with no payments living best I ever have in life.

    Just remember if you are already in trouble your credit is already shot. Any payment plan is not going to fix that. If the do sue GO

  20. T says:

    DAN, the only reason you are not getting garnished is because banks cannot garnish any benefits paid by the US government, child support, SSI, alimony, state or federal pension, etc. Plus in FL, if you are a head of household, you cannot be garnished anyway. However, you can change your bank accounts every day, but if the creditor cannot locate your assets and has a judgment against you, they may move to court for an order for you to come to court and disclose your assets. If you do not show up, you are oin contempt of court order and can be taken to jail for upto 48 hours i believe. They can garsnish and they will. I worked for a debt settlement for a while and know all laws, regulations, ins and outs quite well. I cal also say that this article cannot be further from the truth. I do not know where your friend works, but i totally disagree with every single point of the article but these:-1-you CAN do it yourself. not everyone has time and can negotiate, but sure you can. You can do anything; -2-debt settlement has to disclose all fees (which cannot be charged upfront since 10/27/2010, unless its an attorney-model company thats exampt from TSR), how much and how long the consumer should pay, etc., -3-your credit score will reduce dramatically.

  21. MW says:

    Interest rates increase when people don’t make payments. However, this increase is typically never above the agreed upon settlement amount. You have to take into account that your saving pennies on the dollar. It also doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out; a credit score is raised approximately 33.3 percent when debt is fully alleviated. This is the goal of debt settlement. Plus, most companies offer credit repair at the end of the process. As for bankruptcy, anyone in the industry knows that this too can be an option, nor do bankruptcy attorneys have a sour taste in their mouth for this. Especially when most bankruptcy attorneys offer some type of debt settlement in their practices. Get off this and look at the tax settlement business as the crook ridden scam that it is. It is where all of the bad guys from the real estate industry and debt settlement have migrated. Speaking of, they are all gone because of the new FTC regulations on the industry.

  22. This is part of the compartmentalizing of the common industry masses which keep cities from burning and fuel the general illusion of all these legislative “solutions”, when in reality people in the 20K to 20 mil dollar a year strata are unaware and unable to control a simple switch at the highest levels that have ended this developing circus such as in 1929.

    That’s why even trained economists, investors and bankers are also predatorily devoured at times depending on inconvenient chaos, or pure lack of awareness, the illusion is far above nation-state scams now, and is to greatly complicated in the global power complexity which even nation-state governments cannot understand due to illusion, delusion, and the sheer magnitude of the whole.

    These things require a deep understanding, and computers employed in that deep intelligence logic, and that’s why America as a example, from top to bottom, as a very tiny percentage of awareness, akin to the ratio of the greatest wealth holders or less, say .01% have even a clue in the masses, that a much huger level of predation is occuring, and the masses are locked in their own box of much “understanding”, which is simply untested theory, programmed delusion, and guesses.

    The big wave will devour all these poor people sit up for this sort of ecological purge, quite naturally, and artificially.

    You know what I mean? True world devouring disruptive chaosis.


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