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Power-Save 1200: Recapture Your Electricity Line Loss?
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My friend received a flyer in the mail the other day from Hawkins Electric Service, Inc. about a product that could save him “up to 25% on [his] electricity bill without changing [his] lifestyle.” Apparently, all American homes poorly handle inductive loads and thus lose much of it without even using it. Inductive load is required on anything that runs on a motor and those motors require an amount of non-working reactive power to create an electromagnetic field to operate. Your electric company delivers this reactive power to your home without much knowledge of how much you’ll need and then your motor-equipped appliances draws on what it needs to operate. The excess is sent back to your box and is lost as heat, this loss is called I2R loss or line loss. The idea is that you’re paying for this I2R/line loss when you could’ve installed the Power-Save 1200 (the product that can save you up to 25%) and have it capture this power for later use.
My friend and I are both skeptical about the $300 product because neither one of us really buys the fact that we lose that much electricity in the form of line loss (I would agree that some loss occurs, but 25% of my electricity disappears as heat? I’m not sure). In a pretty exhaustive search online, I couldn’t really find much information discussing the recapture of unused load (there was a lot of other information about recapturing energy, but nothing on electricity in the home).
Phantom power drain: One interesting thing I did find was that a study by the Energy and Resources Group at UC Berkeley and the Energy Analysis Department at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory showed that in a study of ten California homes (yes, it’s a small data set, but what can you do), the total standby power used by each home ranged from 14W to 169W, the average being 67W. This corresponds to 5-26% of a home’s annual energy use. This power use is generally called phantom power drain and seems like an easier target for a savings of “up to 25%” than a $300 unit attached to your power box.
Lastly, somewhat related to this topic is the idea of energy saver systems for the induction motors themselves, because as they operate they lose a bit of the energy as heat depending on their efficiency. I discovered this extremely technical analysis on energy saver systems for induction motors that covers the marketing idea of making a particular induction motor driven item more efficient. Ultimately I believe the article is saying that they’re not worth it.
Anyone do any research on this idea of recapturing unused electrical load?
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See Dan’s Data for this. (Search for ‘And you won’t even get a thank-you from the power company’). Basically, it’s useless for residential units.
It *might* be useful for commercial power usage, but it smells very much like a scam
And “Dan’s Data” is at link – the link didn’t go through, for some reason
All the power companies that I know of only bill people for “real power”, not “apparent power” – which has components of both real and reactive power (by the way, heat loss is real power, not reactive power). So this device may save energy but it won’t save you any money.
Industrial users do correct their power factor with banks of capacitors, but thats because they’re charged extra for loads that are too inductive and because they use so much more energy.
I have a feeling that if there was something that could save people a guaranteed 25% on the electricity bill every month, it would already be in place. Heck, for $300, it would pay for itself within one year for many residential houses. You would think the electric company would want to recapture that electricity so they could resell it. It sounds bogus to me.
I build energy billing systems for a living. This is almost certainly a scam. Your company bills you for kW, not kVA. It is also not possible to “capture this power for later use.”
If you had a big motor in a factory in your bathroom then this might be helpful.
This is from my newbie training course:
Manufacturers are often billed by their electric utility for having large inductive loads at their facilities. Inductive loads result from the storage of energy in magnetic fields, which occurs in coils of wire, such as in motor windings. To decrease high electricity bills resulting from this large inductive load, capacitors may be installed at the facility to increase the power factor.
Power factor is the ratio of real power to total power. Total power is made up of two components, called real power and reactive power. Reactive power, whether inductive or capacitive, always acts at right angles to real power. Reactive power is not useful in an industrial setting, as it does no real work when supplied to motors or other electrical devices. Some power companies bill customers for how much reactive power they use, and since reactive power supplies no benefit to the manufacturer, it is desirable to reduce or eliminate the reactive component of power that the manufacturer uses.
Power factor can be calculated as follows:
Power factor = Real Power (kW) / Total Power Supplied (kVA)
where
KW = kilowatts
kVA = kilovoltamperes
No expert but isnt kilowatts the same as kilovoltamps. volts times amps is watts hence kva=kw
Several years ago I attended a “Franchise Expo” with a lot of booths staffed by people trying to sell dubious franchises at inflated prices. (One was selling ATMs at $10K a pop.)
One booth was offering some sort of “power save” system which sounded similar to this one. This one was intended for commercial rather than residential applications, like grocery stores which have lots of coolers and freezers drawing huge power. I didn’t investigate it, but scam or no scam it has been around a while.
Mine works great. I save around 18% per month.
David: How do you know you save 18%?
I too would like to know how David Glass confirms his 18% per month savings.
One item that I’d like to research, that might easliy save the average home owner 10-20% is the new LED light bulbs. The concept seems simple enough that if we replaced the normal and highly inefficient incandescent light bulbs with LED lights bulbs, that we could reduce our home lighting bill substantially. I wonder how they rank next to florescent bulbs?
Thanks !
I would be *fascinated* to hear how David Glass saves 18%.
LED lighting for the home is not reliable today. Maybe it will be in the future. Compact flouresents and cold cathode reduce wattage up to 75%, and can last up to three times longer than traditional lighting. And cold cathode is dimmable.
There is some kw reduction for motor loads for the home, 5% to 10% only in kw reduction on those loads only. Mainly for HVAC units, pool and spa pumps and small motor loads. No savings for lighting, and non-resistive loads (like ovens, electric stoves, heat from dryers) which have no wasted energy.
My thought on the excessive savings comes from people truly wanting to lower the costs, and once they have purchased an “energy savings device”, the customer becomes more aware of the energy usage and starts paying more attention to wasted energy from lights being left on when not needed, and more attention to lowering thermostat temperatures in the winter and raising in the summer.
One value of the home unit similar to a power saver, http://www.kvarenergysavings.com and http://www.usesmfg.com, is the added benefit provided for power protection (TVSS is included within the unit) from surges, spikes and lightning strikes that can destroy thousands of dollars of a home assets, like enetertainment systems, home theaters, computers, tv’s and etc.
LED lighting for the home is not reliable today. Why and How?
I usa thisa equipment … I sava so much money that the electric company now pay me!
This is from Atlanta: (BTW: All electric households are common down here)
ATLANTA — A CBS 46 Investigation uncovered what appears to be a needless waste of power in some metro Atlanta homes.
A device called the “Power-Save 1200” promises to cut electric bills up to 25 percent. The U.S. Department of Energy has endorsed the technology, but not a single power company in the Southeast is willing to talk about the product.
Motor-based appliances pull in more kilowatts of energy than people use. The leftover energy flows out of the home, completely wasted. The makers of the Power-Save 1200 claim that if a homeowner installs the device near the breaker panel, it will store the leftover power for future use.
The device was intriguing to one Atlanta family. With one toddler and another on the way, the Marks are a high-energy family.
Click here to find out more!
“I have an electric lawnmower, so I have been kicking that on as well,” said homeowner Greg Mark.
“I’m doing potty training, so the dryer is on every day,” said wife Michelle.
The Marks agreed to let CBS 46 install the device in their home. Their electrician said this was the first device he’s ever seen in a home. The electrician said he normally installs the device in businesses.
“It’d be interesting to see if we can really reduce our power without having to change our lifestyle too drastically,” said Greg.
Several months later, the Marks consulted their electric bills for the results.
“The real measure is year to current month and that was a big difference!” said Greg.
The family’s energy use is down 240 kilowatt hours a month, saving the family about $15 to $20 a month. If the trend continues, the $300 investment in the device will be paid back in about 18 months.
The Marks have cut the bill by about 12 percent so far, but with summer approaching, the Marks will be cranking up their energy-hogging air conditioning. That means the largest savings may be yet to come.
“I’m looking forward to cranking it up,” said Greg. “So we’ll see what happens!”
It certainly appears that they saw savings – with an electric mower, and heavy dryer use.
Don,
You wrote that “The U.S. Department of Energy has endorsed the technology, but not a single power company in the Southeast is willing to talk about the product.” Can tell me where I can find that endorsement? Thanks.
Dan Rider
David Glass saved 18% by hawking this shite to stupid people and paying his utility bill. A moron and his cash do easily part.
Even CBC got duped! Wow!
Why do so many people comment about what they have no idea about. It only shows their ignorance. Our power company had to give us a $300 credit for the year because we came way under our balanced billing usage for previous years. The world is full of ignorant people who are nay sayers, even when they have absolutely no experience. Nay sayers probably never accomplish much because they are never willing to try anything. Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, Wright Brothers, etc. name them- not one of them was a nay sayer like you are.
Why can’t i get a simple answer if this product works or not. I have been looking for reviews for about 3 hours now and can’t get a straight answer. The people who are saying no appear to have no concrete evidence and the people who are saying it works seem really convincing. my electrician told me about it and said it would save me about 25%. I have a big house and my fixed electric bill is about $400 a month, does anyone know if it would work for me.
Hi Frank, you got a 60 day money back guarantee. So try it for two months and if it doesn’t work return it. That’s what I am doing. I bought it feb.3rd. Installed it Feb.6th. My feb. meter reading was on the 17th.My Jan. bill was $227.77 and my Feb. bill was $194.41.That’s with the unit only working for 11 days.My March bill should tell the real story however.
That’s all I can tell you for now, Paul.
frank i installed one for a friend who is a general contractor i do electrical work for. his bill was always right at $700 (big shop big house). for the past 2 months his bills $520 and $534. does it work wont promise but sure looks that way.
I bought one and we have used it around 4 months now. Our power bill dropped $75.00 from the previous month and $50.00 from the previous year in the same month). Even with the ac on our power bill was around $200.00 a month and we had never had it under @50 to 275. With the ac and heat it was as high as $350.00. Will see how it goes this winter.
This summer our nephew has a bus with an air conditioner and freezer and it only raised our power $140.00 a month.
Will see how it works out for a six month period.
Irene
Frank, you are absolutely right! Everyone who says it’s a scam, has no real life evidence to back it up. It seems that they just like to hear themselves talk. It cracks me up when you see an “electrician” say they’ve been one for numerous years and claims it’s a scam, but they never actually installed one, and saw the before and after utility bills with their own eyes. See that’s where the ultimate truth is. The Utility bill! So far, I have not seen any claims from someone that has one installed that it doesn’t work. I am in the same boat as you. Does it work? Is it a scam? I guess the only way to find out is to try it! I live in Las Vegas and I have a 3200 sq. ft. home with 2 A/C units. Now, I don’t claim to be knowledgeable in this field, nor do I have any any experience with this item. Bottom line, I am just looking for ways to save money. From what I understand, this unit is designed to help reduce power waste involved with inductive motors (A/C units, refrigerators, washers/dryers, etc.) In Vegas, these units are running all year-round so I believe it would work well for me, if it does what it claims to do. For others that don’t have A/Cs and many appliances with inductive motors in them, then it would be a waste of money.
Just my $.02
Frank, your simple answer is NO, there is no cost benefit to these devices on a residential application.
Mike, here is the evidence to back it up…
http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf
JC, the engineer only talks about line loss. The power factor correction caused a 2.44 amp reduction in motor current that causes 293 watts less energy to be used. He never addresses that and wether or not it provides a savings.
so mike did you ever install one and did it save you any money yet, i know it’s early but i would like to know as so as you can.
I am electrician and i have installed several power save units. My most recent house i installed one on, saved 20% on her bill from July to august.
She ran the same amount of her home equipment. Her ac is set at a controled temp by a programable thermostat. Her bill In July was $100 and in august it went down to $80. And her house is only 1100 sq.ft.
you cannot compare month to month. You must compare the month from this year to the same month from the previous year. You compare usage, (kw hours consumed), not cost, because in my area power company has increased costs 12.5% each year for the past 2 years. The comparison is all about reduced usage of kw hours. the less you use, the less you are billed. Largest savings (15%-25%) are on commercial applications. Smaller savings (10-15%) have been on homes. Also, this is a capacitor based product. It has no benefit to resistive loads (the heat in a dryer, toasters, heatting element in a d/w, oven etc…), but is quite effective on inductive loads (A/C, motors in dryers, washers, etc…).
And last, tests have shown that when applied to a panel that has combined inductive and resistive loads, the results are not that good. Some resistive loads have seen their power factor drop significantly, offsetting the increase in power factor of inductive loads. Best to choose your largest load (in most cases the a/c) and install at the unit. If in the southeast and 9 months out of the year a/c is 70% of your usage (not uncommon), a 20% reduction in kw consumption on the a/c alone will math out to about a 12-14% savings. For all you thomas doubters out there, if you have no experience or fact based research to back you, why are you replying?
it is also a surge suppressor
Scam it seems. Installed the Power Save 1200 (average electric bill $270) and we saved $1 first month, bill went up $10 next month. Usage did not vary over the three months. We were replacing the electric panel anyway so I thought I would give it a shot. Learn from my mistake. If something changes down the road, I’ll come back and repost. Scott
scott is the 1200 installed at right? if main breaker at top of panel 1200 needs to be in that top breaker spot. if main breaker at bottom of your panel it needs to be at thee bootom. just checking made that mistake on my first one. also maybe your house already has a power factor close to 0 and you would not need the 1200.
So, Scott, did you compare Aug 08 to Aug 07, or Aug 08 to Jul 08? The true comparison would be Aug to Aug, but I would also say you should compare more than 2 years, because weather may vary enough to cause dips. But, if you compare 5 or 10 years (however much data you get from the utility co or records), then that would be a good comparison. Yours is the first comment I have seen of actual Power Save installation that says it does not work.
JC your link to Rynone Engineering is a joke! This guy is a one man show with sales of 45k a year! So why should I believe his BS? As for the Scott Simons maybe you didn’t install it correctly!
Don’s article from CBS seems to add some credibility to this product as well as others on this site.
What the heck if it doesn’t work I’ll take if off and sell it on E-bay!!
JC, thanks for your 7/30 comment and the link. My wife thinks we should get one of these and I have been trying to find a coherent rebuttal.
I am tempted to buy this thing because we have:
One 1hp potable water well pump*
One 1 hp lawn and garden watering pump(* in summer only)
Two attic ventilators(* in summer only)
Three motors related to a 14 year old 11 SEER 4-ton heat pump*
One washer*
One dryer*
One dishwasher
One freezer
Three ceiling fans
One vacuum sweeper
One garage door opener
One range fan
Two motors in a Wally Whiz-bang bathroom heater/ventilator
One pump motor in bath tub
I live on the NE Cape Fear River just outside Wilmington, NC, and the items with an * get heavy use.
On top of this, I have a pv powered 30-tube Apricus solar hot water heater, (which works great!) installed a year ago, and we have replaced all incandescent bulbs with fluorescent. We have a 2,000 sq ft, one story house that is well insulated, and have been tracking power usage for two years now, using graphs and data tables.
I have been all over the web looking for evals of the p-s 1200. One of the better sites I found for detailed, understandable evals was on the Amazon site
http://askville.amazon.com/Power-Save-1200-lower-monthly-energy-bill/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=4574892
Because of the number of motors and usage, the added surge protection (we are in a high lightening area), and the recent rate increase by our electric company, I am strongly leaning toward buying this thing, but the price is just obscene for what is in it.
Everywhere I’ve read has said the typical home doesn’t have enough stuff to warrant one of these things, think about how often those appliances you list are running and how much power they can potentially release back into the system, it’s not that much. I don’t think it’s worth it.
you can get a p-s 1200 on ebay for around $100.00 as opposed to the $300.00 at power-save.
Can we all agree on one thing here? The amount of money which you pay your local electric company is calculated DIRECTLY from the KWH meter on the side of your house.
I have been a Meter Engineer at the largest electric utility in America for over 25 years. This is what I know to be true. The meter on your house accurately measures the REAL component of AC power in KiloWatts / KiloWatthours. Residential customers are billed only for Real power (KWH). Check your own utilities tariffs, most are on line (we do business in 11 states, they are all posted).
These “power saver devices” are essentially Power Factor correction devices. Correcting a poor power factor will have no effect on the REAL component of AC power, as measured in your electric meter (residential). So, while this device may indeed correct the power factor and reduce the reactive power component, the load (Real Power) as measured by your meter will not show any change.
Commercial/Industrial customers are metered with more expensive types of meters that capture both the Real and the Reactive component of power. They are billed under completely different tariffs which penalize for having poor Power Factors. For those customers, improving the power factor WILL result in a lower bill. This is well understood among commercial energy managers.
As a service, we even help our commercial customers calculate the amount of PF correction necessary to lower their bills.
Sign me –
5 years of college to get a Bachelor’s in Electrical Engineering.
5 years of on the job experience to become a licensed Professinal Engineer.
25 years evaluating electricity meters.
And a lifetime of hating to see people throw money away.
Dick,
What state are you licensed as a PE in? If you do not mind can you also provide your license number?
Thanks for the info.
Don
Ohio License number PE.502XX (I prefer not to post my full license number to an open web site).
you did 5 years of college to be a meter tech.
Hello Dick,
Your advice and experience convinced me. I almost fell for it.
Thank you,
Drew
Question: if you lower the current/amps required to run the motor does that not reduce the amount of kw consumed? And if so, would this not save energy usage?
Your argument is fallacious, you don’t actually look at the device or how it works. I am trying to be skeptical, and maybe save my father the trouble of buying one. Can someone who has posted on the theory of how it can’t work actually look at one?
OK. I’ve seen enough independent evals to believe the thing is a scam. Thanks. Besides, it is made in China. So it is off my list of things to do to save energy.
On to building a windmill. No kidding. Can DC be connected to the heating element in a water heater, and produce heat safely? I need to augment my 30 tubes in the winter, to stay off the grid in the winter. That would put us off the grid entirely for hot water. This would seem a simple way to use DC from a windmill. Or do I need an inverter?
After that, I need to convince my wife to use the solar dryer, aka clothesline. Rottsa ruck there.
Have you noticed this what ever the public thinks they need or want to buy, a company will come up with it. Like when you the people hear shortage. The price goes up. Years ago i had a van top of line TV VCR the works. Now we cant give them away. Well the new thing is electric cars, you know we need green. Point being what ever is hot is going to be costly. It all about making money, lookout for you pockets. Recapping why don’t we all quit using electricity for say day or 2. Hum that might scare them in to thinking. Look at gas we have the high and the low. People stop using gas and a low. Does anyone want to start a strike? It be like palm Sunday, went a week without electric. Recapping maybe we need a strike to solve 15% of your bill. Bye
This device “Power Save 1200″ or similar device will only save you power when a motor is runing. However when no motors on running the capacitor will cost you money (charging, discharging ect.)on every cycle of line voltage 24/7. That is why some people have noticed an increase in there electric bill during months which they required no heating or cooling (largest users of motor current. All Energy Star appliances have capacitors in them, that is how they get some of the energy savings.
This is a very interesting conversation. It seems as though the potential cost savings is pennies. I like hearing about people who are worried about their 8 and 10 cents per KWH. I live in California and the starting place is 12 cents. I pay every month in the 41 cent tier. This means that my bills are $500 and more a month. I have about 300- 500 KWH a month to shave before I get into the 35 Cent perkwh Tier. Based on these numbers can this devise save me even 50KWH per month, which would give me a $20 Savings?
Those of you looking at how much money you saved, or didn’t save, aren’t taking one very important factor into account. Electricity costs per KW have gone up dramatically in the past year or so. Your power company may have posted a 5 – 10% increase to your costs from one year to the next. Or even, one bill to the next.
Check out KW usage to determine whether the device is doing anything for you.
Not to mention DEMAND AND VARYING AMBIENT TEMPERATURE
I’m an energy engineer and agree completely with Dick the Engineer. He is right both on the electrical fundamentals (except as noted below: reactive power can show up as real power in line losses, but this is negligible inside buildings) as well as how the rate structures work.
I work for an energy consulting firm and do energy audits regularly that include rate structure analyses and power factor correction. My brother sent me a link to this PowerSave device asking if it was legitimate because someone at his company is trying to install them on their company buildings to save energy.
If it’s nothing more than a capacitor bank, it can only save money if there’s a utility charge for low power factors (and you actually have a low power factor!) or the demand charge is based on kVA, as Dick mentioned.
Regardless, the claim that a capacitor will cut down on actual energy use (kWh) is almost a complete lie and is deceptive at best: reactive power does increase line current even though the current (called reactive or imaginary) is not used by the end device but is sent back to the power grid, but since there are losses along the copper wires not all of the reactive component is really sent back to the grid. The strange truth: so-called imaginary current results in real losses. So the claim about “heat loss” along wires from reactive power is technically true but is not being conveyed truthfully.
These line losses, inside a home or building, are negligible and are certainly not 25% of a person or company’s power bill. The utility company, on the other hand, who is sending very large amounts of current (to supply hundreds or thousands of consumers) across very long distances (many miles) does have to consider these losses from “imaginary” (reactive) current. This is why they put capacitors along their distribution systems.
But a capacitor on a home is worthless because:
(1) there is no power factor penalty on residential rate structures, and
(2) line losses due to imaginary or reactive current flowing through the house and back to the grid (recall that reactive power is not consumed, it’s just exchanged between the energy source (utility) and sink (your devices)) are negligible.
As was said by others, if this could really save 25% energy or $$ on homes, it would be out there and growing fast. Where it can save $ (not energy) is on industrial consumers who are billed on reactive demand (kVA) or penalized for low power factors. Not surprisingly, capacitor banks are common on such facilities, and we investigate and recommend them on a regular basis. But note that it is because it saves $$ on the utility bills; it does not save energy (enough to speak of) inside a building.
sign me
-BS in Biomedical Engineering, Georgia Tech
-MS in Mechanical Engineering, Cornell Univ.
-EIT working on getting PE
-working for 2 years at consulting firm specializing in energy services
david you may be right about all of that you seem to have way more education than me, and that was a great read for me. i am an electrician 2 year degree in industrial and commercial electricity then a 5 year apprentice program. this is just what i saw when i installed a 1200 for a friend of mine who bought one. with no one home at his house one of three ac units running and just a few lights on. 17.9 amps without the 1200 on turned it on dropped to 13.4. do i think they work i hope so to early for me to tell. but my amp meter does not lie right. again though thanks for that power factor lesson from u and the other eng..
Only scams SPAM as much as they do. They claim to store power. Give me a break!!
It would take thousands of dollars of batteries to store what they claim. Save your money.
I am using an Energy Controler from KVAR Inc. The technology they offer is different from other competitors in that, they have developed and patented a “sizing” unit for their capacitance devices. There are approximately 600 customized variations of their device. The sizing unit was developed by a NASA engineer, and is patented. The KVAR Energy Controller (KVAR EC) is LEED certified, UL listed, CSA listed, RoHS compliant, and has been officially tested, and the results documented by NASA.
For the commercial/industrial market, there are three variations of the patented sized equipment as follows: a SINGLE PHASE UNIT called the US1, which sizes all single phase equipment and two separate THREE PHASE UNITS called the US2 and US3. The US2 and US3 are capable of sizing fractional motors up to 75hp and up to 300hp respectively. Further, these sizing units can be coupled to effectively size equipment in excess of 300hp. For the residential market, there are two models offered; the PU-1100 for single-phase 100a service application and the PU-1200 for single-phase 200a service application.
The sizing unit is a dip switch device to step capacitance for comparative testing purposes, and comes with software to allow for calculations of ROI, KWh savings, and projected monetary savings on the spot. The major benefit is that the entire electrical system at the facility is fine tuned based upon real data obtained as a result of the sizing process and not by a single “catch-all” capacitor bank. Since the units are custom designed based upon hard data to determine the exact amount of capacitance required as opposed to the generalized calculations used by competitive products, the result is a small and compact, yet highly cost effective unit that is specific to the particular equipment where its application is warranted.
The sizing process also helps in determining the best application to achieve the greatest ROI for the client. Through the sizing process, they run a cost benefit analysis to determine how to achieve maximum savings for the least expense. Most commonly, individual units are installed on the load side at the power disconnect for specific equipment or in applications where the cost for individual units would not justify the ROI, a single unit would be installed at the circuit panels. In some instances, they have installed one or two custom units at select equipment and then installed a separate unit at the main circuit panel to cost effectively fine tune the remainder of the facility, as the installation of multiple equipment specific units would not have provided the greatest ROI. In this manner, they are able to reduce overall project costing, while achieving more accurate PF correction and a reduction in Reactive Power losses, achieving an overall corrected PF of typically .95-.99 lagging.
With increased PF and lowered amp draw dur to reduced RP bounce, the watt usage drops dramatically.
Jim,
I used to think like you do about needing all those batteries (capacitors do not store energy very long)so must be a scam. But I recently realized that ’saving the power for later’ is to make it easy for laymen to understand. “Later” actually means later in the 60Hz cycle. In much over-simplified terms, when the voltage of the 60Hz sine wave rises, inductors (e.g.motors, flourescent light ballasts)resist current rise, but a capacitor sucks up the current. When the sine wave descends, the motor sucks up current and a capacitor gets rid of it. That’s a very rough explanation, but a capacitor in parallel with a motor can compensate for the power factor (current and voltage being out of phase) problem. For a 60Hz application, the capacitor only has to store power for about 120th of a second. This is why modern induction motors come equiped with a capacitor connected. The idea of putting a capacitor in parallel with a motor to ‘give the power back later’ has been accepted practice for years. This would not be a requirement for Energy Star rating if it were not effective.
But a motor’s capacitor cannot perfectly match the motor (it would result in a resonant tank circuit which would not be good). Also, there is the inductance caused by any flourescent light ballasts to be compensated for. I investigated the power save 1200 and learned that it is not one capacitor but a fixed bank of them. Power Save has made bigger ones for industry for about 30 years. There are some industrial ones (made by other companies)that adjust according the situation, but cost much more. But if a residential meter doesn’t care about power factor, will it make any significant difference in a home’s bill?
I just called Power Save and they said the 60-day guarantee is uncondition but does not include shipping (@$10). But they also said they can do free shipping out. So, instead of all this theoretical gas, I wish the critics would either keep their views to themselves or actually try one for 60 days and get past theory to reality. With the option to try one out like that, why do they feel so free to rant and rave without actually trying one? According to all calculations, the bumble bee cannot fly. But such theoretical discussions are a cope out for watching one fly.
Dan Rider, engineering translator (Japanese)
Jim,
After I posted my reply, I realize that I omitted two things regarding the Power Save.
1. Even with the money back guarantee and no net shipping, there is still a financial risk: the licensed electrician’s charge to install and then remove it. So there is risk involved in having something worth saying about Power Saver. Should those who have not done their home work volunteer their opinions?
2. The most a trial can determine is whether or not it makes any significant difference in THERI house. One has to be certain that there is not one case of it making a difference (or not one case when it did NOT make a difference, before one can (accurately) make a generalized conclusion either way.
Now, in logic, one positive case disproves a generalized negative. So when there are mixed reports, a critic has to do a disprove EVERY positive report before he has a right to say ‘nay’.
Dan Rider
Dan, I have been looking at this device (PS-1200). The videos I have seen show it hooked to only one side / leg of your electrical supply. Would you not have to have 2 units (one for each leg) since the load at the breaker box is balanced between the 2 sides?
Mike,
I have not seen the video but have the printed installation instructions. If you go to Power-Save.com, click on ‘PS1200′ and on the PS1200 page, click on ‘PS1200 install instructions’ you will get a pdf file. I will quote the relevant part here:
“3.Install a two pole 20 amp 220 volt breaker and secure the two red leads (wires) of the PU-1200, one on each side of the breaker. Secure the green wire from the PU-1200 to the ground bar in the panel. Leave breaker in “OFF” position until power is restored to panel.”
(The device used to be called ‘PU1200′, but this is the same criter. I wouldn’t want to call anything ‘PU’.) As you can see, the device has three leads: by connecting ‘one on each side’ of a 220V breaker, two leads straddle 220V and, in connecting to both sides of the 220V service, connect to one side of each 110V leg. The third lead connects to the middle (ground), thus connecting to the other side of both legs. So one unit takes care of both 110V legs as well as the 220V circuit. I hope this helps.
Dan, thanks for your help. They sell what looks to be a knock-off (I didn’t see any U.L. label)of the ‘1200 unit with “about” the same name on e-bay for ~ $99.00 (in a plactic electrical box). I went to the web site of KVAS (they use a metal electrical box) and they show the internal parts in one of their videos. There are 2 what look like Air Conditioner Unit Cap’s, attachment wires, and a light on the case to show that power is on. Pretty good profit at $299. They claim to price match but did not match the $99 units. A friend had one put in his home (I told him when he bought them I didn’t know the science in the box and didn’t know if they would work) last year and let me know this week that they didn’t work for him. I run a swimming pool motor 6-8 hours a day and thought they might help if that is what they are puttings (Cap’s) inside energy star devices.
Lets keep this real simple.
1) Call your Power Company and ask for your average monthly use and $bill.
2) Check the Rate on your per unit cost.
3) Install the PS1200 and check againt the previous 2 items.
Am I the only one here, that is noticing that no one is offering any specifics, just theory or partial info.
I want to see someone post thier actual information.
My 08 average bill was $xxx.xx.
It cost me $xxx.xx to buy ship and have installed the PS1200. After 3 months of use, and a per unit price increase my average cost per month is now xxx.xx
I mean if your utility rate increased and this thing only saves you 1% then didn’t it actually save you 1% plus offset the utility bill. I am no expert in anything, but if it reduces not only your bill a little bit, and lowers the damage done by Spikes, Brown outs and Lightning isn’t that still a positive thing. So far this has only made me want to buy one to test it now. LOL
I agree with Kevin. All of this info has only made me want to buy one. If it works I’ll come back and let you know. The Power-Save company is offering free shipping, so the cost is going to be $300. I have called an electrician and they will install it for $100 – $120 was the quote. My average bill is $100 per month. I have replaced all of my light bulbs, and I have even started to use power surge protectors to cut out vampire power loss. I plan on coming back in a couple of months to let you know if it has made any difference.
I have purchased one, however, it is VERY difficult for me to tell if indeed this is saving me money. On the average my bills are tending to go down, however, I also have a PV system that does not generate the same amount of electricity from day to day, let alone month to month. In order to really see what is going on I am going to start doing a net metering on the house. This will tell me how much energy I am using at any given time. If you have read the information on the PS device it states that you install it on a dedicated breaker. My goal is to basically turn every electric motor based device in my home and measer the usage (the device I am purchasing will measure usage to the watt.) I will run that for ten minutes and calculate the average usage. I will then turn off (flip the breaker) on the PS device and measure the average usage for another ten minute period. If this device saves energy then the second ten minute period will use less energy than the first. Hopefully this will end the debate. Any other suggestions for this test?
Marty
Sorry, typo above. The second test will use MORE energy than the first.
It would not be an accurate test by simply comparing one months bill against another. A simple way to test this device is:
1. Make sure you have inductive loads on in the house (refrigerator, AC, flourescent lights, etc). Or if you wish, turn everything on, just make sure nothing turns off during the tests (thermostat, timer, another person unaware of tests, etc). Or, if the device is plugged in next to the refrigerator, turn everything off (at the breaker panel) except the refrigerator. This will give a true test for the one circuit this device (or any other similar device) claims to help.
2. Time your meter without the saving device on.
3. Time your meter with the saving device on.
Results: Did the meter turn faster or slower with the device on?
I did this test for a friend, and the results show virtually no change in the speed of the meter. What I did, I used a stopwatch and timed ten disc revolutions, both with the device on, and with the device off. Each time we saw virtually no change. Actually, when the device was on, the meter disc turned slightly faster. Please, don’t just take my word for it! Test and see for yourself.
My friend thought that his new device was what saved him $40 dollars on his electic bill. He was comparing February’s bill to March’s bill! He saved because he used less, not because of this new device!!!
how do you plug it in right next to your fridge. just a ? plus how do you know his kWh’s were not less because of the 1200. just another ?
In order to plug in this device (or any other device that is designed for 240 volt home installation) near a refrigerator, you would have to do a temporary setup with a plug using the neutral wire and one “hot” wire, with the other “hot” wire capped. I have not done this with this particular unit, but I have seen other brands out there on the internet that are designed with a plug that can be plugged in anywhere in the house (120 volt receptacle).
To answer your question about “how do you know his kWh’s were not less…”, I know the kilowatts were not less because I was timing the most important meter in question, the electric utilities’ meter, and it did not slow down. I realize that many electric utilities today have electronic meters that does not have the revolving discs. If your meter has a revolving disc, and you wish to do a simple test yourself, you can estimate the load. Here is the formula:
Load (in watts) = (Kh X disk revolutions X 3600 seconds) / time in seconds
Where:
Kh = disk constant, or Watthour constant. (This is the number of watthours represented by one revolution of the disk). The older the meter, the more diverse this number could be. A very popular number is 7.2. (My home meter has 7.2Kh on the front).
Example: If a meter with a Kh of 7.2 makes 12 revolutions in 70 seconds, then…
Load = (7.2 X 12 X 3600) / 70
Load = 311,040 / 70
Load = 4443.4 watts
Load = 4.443 kilowatts
If this exact load is used for one hour, then after one hour you will have used 4.443 kilowatthours. If your utility charges 10 cents per kilowatthour, then 4.443 X .10 = $0.4443. If they charge 8.5 cents per kWhr, then 4.443 X .085 = $0.377
If you do this test, use a stop watch and an interval of at least one minute for accuracy.
For anyone who thinks, “reducing amps will cause the watts or kilowatts to reduce, and therefore will lower my electric bill”, may he/she first ask if he/she is reducing apparent power or actual power. Any “power saving” device that is using capacitors to improve power factor can reduce the kva amps, and will improve a poor power factor, but does the home electric meter record power factor and charge for poor power factor? Mine does not. It only records watts or kilowatts, and kilowatthours, not kilovoltamperes. (It records actual power used, not apparent power).
Correction: This particular unit probably cannot be connected in a 120 volt receptacle. The unit I tested was already installed at the main. If it has two “hots” and one green wire to be connected to ground, then this unit would be for 240 volt installation only, and could not be “temporarily” installed in a 120 volt receptacle. However, if it will do what certain web sites claim it will do, (that is, save on any and all inductive loads), then you could see the affect it has on any one appliance by turning everything else off except the “saving device” at the panel, and then do the tests I mentioned before. If this device is going to save 10% or more on your electric bill, then you must find some situation where you can cause the meter to slow down by 10% or more. Here is one, do a before and after check on your air conditioner while nothing else is on. (The AC is most likely the largest inductive load in the home). Did your meter slow down by 10% or more? With my AC on, my meter turns 10 times in 67 seconds. If you add the so-called power saving device to my AC, it should SLOW my meter causing it to turn 10 times in 68 + 6.8 = 74.8 seconds! I’m not buying it!
Correction again:
I should have said, “it should SLOW my meter causing it to turn 10 times in 67 + 6.7 = 73.7 seconds!” Sorry for the blunder.
I have a power save 1200 and i have had the unit for two months and have seen about a 10% decrease in my last two bills. I have not done a test all i care is that I’m saving money. The first month i did not use AC and the second i did. So i know it is not because i used less power. No worries on my end.
I put the power saver 1200 in a month ago. I have never gotten my kwh usage below 1530 in any month. Last month they were only 1,394 for a total of $125.56 power bill down from 176.23 the previous month and 158.52 in June of 2008. I can’t wait till we have to start using the air conditioner and see what that saves us. I am going to become a reseller if anyone wants one.
I have installed 10 of these now basically as a test for a few months. what i have saw though was a drop in amps the instant the unit is turned on. power factor or not less amps lower bill. do i think they will work great and see 25% for every house NO! do i think they will work for some houses YES! also they claim up to 25% savings actually say normal savings around more like 10%. ALSO one thing to note that you will use less energy which good for the enviroment. sorry about my bad grammer and all that smart person stuff.
For those of you that have one, does it matter where you wire it in on the 200 amp Service? I only have an open braker position on the bottom of my service?
Well Brainiac, I saved 28% the first month; and I’ve noticed savings over previous years (month to month)
Seems obvious that the PS unit lowers current flow displayed on an amp probe and per posting electrical engineers, the home power company meter only bills for real power. So is it possible that some meters are actually billing for reactive power incorrectly ? It seems too many people are seeing a savings for it not to be somehow working.
I have looked on the internet for the ingredients of the Power Saver 1200 but can’t find anything is it a secret? Also if it is a capacitor don’t they only help on motor startup?
Kurt,
I called the company and they said the innerds consist of a fixed bank of large, rugged capacitors. Their capacitors are self-healing. As someone states above, there are more expensive ones (made by another company) that adjust capacitance according to the net inductance of a system. It is common practice for a manufacturer to put a capacitor accross the terminals of an electric motor. (For home appliances that have a motor of any size, those capacitors are required for an Energy Star rating, so are seen as saving energy.) If any one motor’s capacitor perfectly matches the inductance of the motor, there is a very real danger of destructive resonance. Power factor correction units are used centrally, to deal with the net inductance of a system. Looking at the amp rating of them makes that obvious. Industry uses these to improve their power factor, in order to cut down on their electric bill. In addition to motors, ballast-based lighting also has inductance from each ballast (e.g. fluorescent, mercury vapor, sodium lights) that add to the net inductance of a system. When there are enough of them, they pull the power factor down so also need to be compensated for.
Dan Rider
I have installed 1 of these units and they have been in operation for 2 months. The results that I have received so far is, no change in the electric bill. I have performed at least 10 seperate tests and each time the end results were the same, reduced current, improved power factor, but no change in the electric meter speed. It does not matter if the power save unit is on or off, when using a stop watch or quartz watch, I have not been able to measure the slow down in the electric meter. To me this means no change in the electric bill.
Has anyone installed a Power Monitor like the TED 1001 or even Black and Decker has one that gives accurate KW usage moment by moment and also logs usage by day and month. If anyone has one of those units installed with the Power Saver 1200 or the like, there would be no guess work. It would show with out a doubt if the Power savers work. Has anyone done that?
Tony
I put the PS-1200 on my home last month. To test if it worked, I read the meter twice in 48 hrs. to establish daily KWH usage. It came to 122 and 125 KWH per day. I then turnwed the unit off for 24 hrs. and reread the meter. With the unit off I used 137 KWH for the day. I have done this several times in the last 45 days with the same type of results. The 15 KWH per day savings translates into $1.38 per day or $41.40 per month in savings. Not a bad return. I pay .092Cents/KWH in Phoenix. On hotter days, the savings were 18 – 19 KWH saved per day. It was between 105 and 115 during the tests.
I know this is not scientific testing, but is is good enough for gov’t use.
Jim A.
Scottsdale, Az.
About timing 10 revolutions of your meter with the unit off and on, I wonder if that is too small a sampling period. If the unit saves and average of $1.00 per day, it would pay for itself in about 10 months. After that, it would just continue saving about $1.00 a day for years and years. So it seems to me that if it saved $1.00/day, that is enough to make it valid. But if it saves $1.00 over 24 hours, that’s 1/24 of a dollar every hour, and even less during the time it would take for 10 revolutions. I am inclined to think that the difference wouldn’t be enough to spit at.
If your electric load is constant for 24 hours, I would agree that only 10 revolutions would seem at first thought to be too small a sampling period, until I do the math. If I use a monthly bill of $150 and 10 cents per kWhr as an example, consider the following:
A $150.00 monthly bill (not counting tax) at 10 cents per kWhr with a constant load that never changes would mean my electric meter would have a constant load of how much?
$150 divided by 30 days = $5.00 per day
$5.00 divided by 24 hours = $0.208333 per hour
$0.208333 divided by 60 minutes = $0.0034722 per minute
Also, consider:
$150.00 monthly bill divided by 0.10 cents per kWhr = 1,500 kWhrs
1,500 kWhrs divided by 30 days = 50 kWhrs per day
50 kWhrs divided by 24 hours = 2.083333333 kWhrs per hour
How does this translate into how fast the meter dial will spin?
2.083333333 kWhrs per hour means the constant load would be 2.083333333 kilowatts. That is the same as 2,083.333333 watts. If the meter has a Kh rating of 7.2, this means that each revolution of the disk represents 7.2 watts. Do you remember from my earlier comments the formula for meter disk revolutions?
Load (in watts) = (Kh X disk revolutions X 3600 seconds) / time in seconds
Where:
Kh = disk constant, or Watthour constant.
So, how long will it take my meter to turn 10 times if it has a constant load of 2,083.333333 watts?
(7.2 x 10 x 3600) / 2,083.333333 = 124.416 seconds
Now, if I plug in this “energy saving device”, and I save 10%, what will that do to my meter that has a constant load?
$150.00 with 10% savings = $135.00 (Not counting tax)
$135.00 divided by 0.10 cents per kWhr = 1,350 kWhrs per month
1,350 kWhrs divided by 30 days = 45 kWhrs per day
45 KWhrs divided by 24 hours =1.875 kWhr per hour
1.875 kWhr per hour = constant load of 1.875 kW = 1,875 watts
Now, how long will it take my meter to turn 10 times if it has a constant load of 1,875 watts?
(7.2 x 10 x 3600) / 1,875 = 138.24 seconds
This is a difference of nearly 14 seconds! Please realize that it should not be that difficult to find a scenario using mostly inductive loads where your so-called energy saving device is tested in a “before and after” test that lasts for at least 60 seconds, and thereby see overwhelming results with the speed of the meter dial, that is, if it is going to save 5%, 10%, 20%, 30%, or more! Since my AC and other inductive loads do not stay on 100% of the time, and are not 100% of my electric bill, I should see even more dramatic results (than the example above) with the meter dial’s speed when I turn on my AC and all other inductive appliances at the same time and do a “before and after test”! If these devices do for the residential customer what they say they will do, (save anywhere from 5% to 35% or more on my electric bill), I should be able to find one for sale at a store that sells appliances or electrical supplies! There are many other brands for sale on the Internet that make similar claims, but none are for sale at Wal-mart! I think I know why!
Gent’s
I guess I’m one of the “suckers” who purchased the Power Save 1200. Installed the thing myself (with licenced electrician) looking over my shoulder. It has been installed two plus months and I am very pleased. Average electric bill is now around 100 per month. Same time last year (cooler summer) $140 $146 for July and Aug. Kwh are down as compared to the same time last summer.
Could it be and anomaly? Yes I guess it could, but as far as the current situation indicates – the thing is working. I have no degree in electrical engineering but I do have the power of observation.
I’ll keep this board informed in future months as to the continued use of my power save 1200.
One more thing before I go. I am a Soldier in the US Army and maintain Apache Helicopters. Have done so for 20 plus years. If I had a dime for all the expert advice (engineers)who say that it “can’t be done” or “won’t work” my helicopters would never have left the ground. Use your own thought processes and trust your instincts….has served me well over 20 years and 5 combat deployments.
Russ
Let me first say, “Thank you for serving our country.” My hat is off to all who are serving or have served in the armed forces. Keep up the good work.
I am glad to hear from anyone who is saving money. If you are saving over $40 a month, you are doing really well. This means you should be able to turn your Power Save 1200 off, leave every thing else running, and notice a big difference in the speed of your meter, that is, if you have the mechanical type with a disc. (If you don’t, let me know. There may be another way to time your meter.) I do not know what you are paying per kilowatthour, but the national average is about 12 cents. If you are paying about 12 cents per kwhr, and your previous bill was $140 or more, then your kilowatt usage would be:
$140 divided by $0.12 = 1,167 kwhrs. (This does not take into account the service charge, taxes, etc.)
1,167 kwhrs divided by 30 days = 38.9 kwhrs per day (average)
38.9 kwhrs divided by 24 hours = 1.620 kwhr per hr.
1.620 times 1,000 = 1,620 watts per hour (avg)
To calculate the speed of ten revolutions of your meter, use this formula:
speed in seconds = (kh x 10 revs x 3600)/load (in watts)
If your meter has a kh constant of 7.2, then:
Speed (secs) = (7.2 x 10 x 3600)/1,620
Speed (secs) = 259,200 / 1,620
Speed (secs) = 160
Your meter’s disc will average 10 revolutions every 160 seconds. This speed, of course, will change as your load changes.
Now, if you save $40 dollars a month, again using 12 cents per kwhr, then your meter’s average load will be:
$100 divided 12 cents = 833.333 kwhrs
833.333 kwhrs / 30 days = 27.777 kwhrs per day
27.777 kwhrs / 24 hrs = 1.157 kwhrs per hour
1.157 kwhrs x 1,000 = 1,157 watts constant load (avg)
Now, to calculate the speed. Formula:
Speed (secs) = kh x 10 x 3600 / load in watts
Speed (secs) = 7.2 x 10 x 3600 / 1,157
Speed (secs) = 259,200 / 1,157
Speed (secs) = 224
224 – 160 = 64 seconds slower for 10 revolutions (average). Keep in mind that if you have air conditioner on, plus other large inductive loads, your meter will spin much faster than the above calculations indicate, and will change the ratio. But this should, at least, show that the difference between off and on should be very noticable to arrive at $40 savings.
The above calculations only indicate the average. I’m also doing this calculation using the national average. My cost per kwhr is less at about 8.5 or 9 cents per kwhr.
Also, I know that most of the western US is experiencing hotter temps on avg this year, but most of the eastern US is experiencing cooler temps on avg. The best test is to count your meter’s revs with the exact same load on in one setting to end all doubt.
If I knew your cost per kwhr, and service charge, and even your tax rate, I could calculate everything more accurately.
Again, thanks for your service in the army.
Robert,
Month number 4 and Kwh are still reduced from the month, – year prior. I have consistently saved money four months in a row.
There is a destinct difference in “disc” rotation (slower) with the power save on, vs. power save off.
Let me know what data you need to “belay” your fear and I will send it to you. Also if you want specifics I will also send these to you. While I’m not totally “sold” indications are still positive.
Regards
Russ
here are my KWH results since installation. My savings are at the high end (close to 40% last month).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/mcennis3/Cleco-Comparison.jpg
As expected, savings are greater during the summer with AC running.
House is 2375sf with poor insulation/old appliances (windows, doors, freezer, frig, central A/C, wall/attic insulation, etc.).
It would easily cost around $20,000 to upgrade so $300 (plus $60 installation) for the PowerSave1200 was a no brainer (with money back guarantee). The higher the cost per KwH, the bigger the savings.
A few points…KwH $ varies so I speak in Kwh terms vs. dollars when comparing previous year. Looks like approx. 7500 KwH will be
saved the first year. Electrical bill is now similar to friends’ energy efficient homes in neighborhood.
If you have great insulation/energy star appliances/triple pane windows, etc. don’t expect to see such savings.
Someone posted that they saved KwH (but not money) over same month last year so they didn’t think PS1200 worked.
I would guess the price per KwH changed over previous billing.
Others have mentioned that the PS1200 “stores” energy to be used later. Don’t confuse this with batteries.
“Capacitor is a device that STORES energy in the electric field established between a pair of
conductors on which equal but opposite electric charges have been induced.”
check links at bottom of this site.
http://www.iaqdirect.com/Main/Products/Power_Save/ps_faq.htm.
It is absolutely useless to try and time a few cycles with a stopwatch and extrapolate it over a month (yes, I tried too!).
You can check it at the same time daily but even then there can be a huge difference (electric water heater, running dishwasher, etc.)
Other benefits…
With a 40″ HDTV, 2 computers, 3 monitors running at the same time my small office would get very hot.
Now, no noticable difference between office and other rooms.
The central A/C use to sound like a shotgun going off when starting and ran very loud. Since PS1200 I can barely hear it, starts with a purr.
Built in home surge protection.
Hope this helped
Bad Spellers…UNTIE!
You say:
“It is absolutely useless to try and time a few cycles with a stopwatch and extrapolate it over a month (yes, I tried too!).”
Does this mean you timed your electric meter and it did not slow down? Just curious.
120 seconds out of 2,592,000 for the month just isn’t a large enough sample (and appliances don’t consistently run at the same time or speed). I did notice a change but soon realized I got a better idea of what was happening when reading meter at the same time every morning before coffee. I can predict the total wattage with just a couple of readings a month now. You might try something like a Kill A Watt meter on individual appliances (not sure if they work on freezers, etc.).
I received some radiant barrier foil today (from ebay)and hopefully will save another 10%. 1000ft roll sells for $125 but you can get 10-20 dollars off using Bing Cashback plus 30% from the government (tax credit). I wish I would have known it was that cheap at the beginning of the summer. I thought I could lay it over existing insulation but I’ve found one link that doesn’t recommend that method for warm climates. If anyone has any experience with radiant barrier foil I’d appreciate any tips.
I agree that appliances come on different times of the day, and stay on different amounts of time, but I do not understand what you mean when you say they run at different speeds. I realize that some appliances have different settings that can cause loads to change, for example, a dishwasher that could include heat for drying. This is why I suggest a controlled setting for testing.
You have said that summer months with AC on is when you are seeing the greatest savings. Are you suggesting that the AC load varies? Does your AC stay on 2,590,000 seconds? I know that it most likely does not. I was only calculating averages, and was not trying to suggest that the average load is what should be expected when doing a test. I was only showing the dramatic results that should be observed when any test is being done.
AC loads remain very constant, and is where the most savings could be expected. So, if anyone does a test in a controlled setting testing only the AC, 10 revolutions or more, 60 seconds or more will give concluding results.
Let me suggest that you turn off everything. Verify that the meter has stopped. Turn on your AC only. Then time your meter and observe that the meter speed is very constant. Your might want to even read amps at this time. Once you see the consistency of the meter’s speed, time about 10 revolutions. “Less amps means less power bill” is what some have said. So, next, turn on the power saving device and observe the amp reduction (or increase, or no change). Now, time the same amount of revolutions as before.
Did the meter slow down?
Did the meter get faster?
Is the meter speed the same?
If you see a change in amps, but not a change in the meter speed, please report this. If this is what happens, I think I can explain why. I am not an Electrical Engineer, but I have studied this subject and I am very interested in your results.
I did the AC on/off stopwatch before. Does it visually slow down?…yes. It just wasn’t enough to tell how much I would save over a billing cycle. I understand where you are coming from because that was what I was wondering when I first installed it. I think I checked everything in the house! I had also taken daily readings the week before installation and I seem to remember it was 49kWh each day and dropped to 36kWh a day after installation with no change in habits or weather. KWh dropped to mid 20’s on some days during the winter.
Radiant Barrier Foil…Looks like this is one of those projects that would take 8-10 hours for 2 workers and 40 hours by myself. I decided to hang it from the rafters vs. laying on top of insulation because that method was actually taking more time because of the cuts around framing and pipes.
If someone had one of these there would be no guess work if the Power saver really worked.
http://www.theenergydetective.com/ted-1000-overview.html
In the power save 1200 information I have received. It tells you this product is not for everyone. If you have no motors in your house or if your appliances are energy star rated then no your not going to see any savings. But if you have one or more central air uints, swiming pool, a hot tube and a well pump the savings might added up. And they tell you this right on their web site.
I work in Power Engineering and can say that this smells of what I call ‘pop science’ scam. The basic science behind it sounds valid, but the context is not. PFC correction devices are good for heavy inductive loads like commercial motors, which is why large manufacturing and industrial sites have capacitor banks to do this. But the key is these have to be tuned to the specific inductive loads. Having a unit installed outside your home to apply to ‘all’ inductive loads (washer, dryer, dishwasher, refrigerator etc.) does not help in the least.
So, regardless of the shill ‘testimonials’ on this board or intentionally vague claims that the DOE has “endorsed” the technology (did you notice how it says “technology” and not the product?)I can assure you that this will not reduce your bill.
Have to agree with RonS. I am not an Electrical Engineer but work for a large Power Utility company in TX. Utility companies charge you for KWHr used not KVA; what that means is you are not billed for “wasted” energy such as those from inductive loads like motors.
I can’t help noticing there are numerous posts from one specific person who seems to have done a lot of fancy looking but ‘mis-directional’ math to prove his point. I wonder if there is a vested interest here?
Here’s an article from a unbiased source (Energy Star): http://energystar.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/energystar.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=4941&p_created=1204908170
Thank you for the unbiased source (Energy Star). For me, it is the most credible and worthy testimony I have seen thus far. I would like to repeat the website for emphasis:
http://energystar.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/energystar.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=4941&p_created=1204908170
I apologize for having so many posts, but I will always want to defend myself. I have one original post on 5/23, and the rest are replies. Just as the others, please allow me to defend myself again.
When you ask, “I wonder if there is a vested interest here?”, if you mean, “Do you sell these devices?”- -the answer is NO, I do not sell nor do I promote these devices in any way. I do not have anything to sell. I am only interested in the truth. I tested one of these “power saving devices” and found no positive results. (Refer to my post on 5/23). If I could ever see for myself the evidence that these things work, I’ll buy one. A testimony here or there comparing one month to another, or one day to another does not convince me. I have given the setting for an accurate test that would convince me, with examples of how to do the math.
When you say that I have given a “lot of fancy looking but ‘mis-directional’ math” to prove my point, what point do you think I was trying to prove?
If you think I was trying to prove that these devices work, and my math proves they work, then you did not read close enough. My point that I am trying to prove is that anyone should be able to test and see for themselves if they work or not. They don’t even have to know how to do the math! They only have to compare before and after speeds of the meter in a controlled setting. But for those who must see the math, it is there for them as well.
How could my math be “mis-directional”? The formula I use to calculate any load based upon the speed of the electric meter comes from the Pocket Guide to Watthour Meters, Second Edition, p. 18, and is published by Alexander Publications in Newport Beach, California. The utility you work for may already have a copy. I took that formula and applied it to the testing of these devices. I have admitted to and corrected my mistakes before, and I will be glad to correct them again.
I’m very happy with my savings. I am curious what some might say about Furman power conditioners. I used to own one for my recording studio and wasn’t cheap for 8 inputs.
Furman and Power Factor Technology
http://www.furmansound.com/page.php?div=01&id=FAQ_PowerFactorCE
“Q. How Does It Work? (Click for answer)
A. Power Factor Technology utilizes a proprietary parallel reactance circuit which “stores a reservoir of energy” while lowering high frequency AC impedance during transient peak operating conditions. This circuit acts like a massive “fuel tank” for your power amplifiers power supply, providing increased performance and stability with over 45 amps peak current reserve in the Elite-15 PF i, and up to 80 amps peak current from the IT-Reference 20i! This transient power factor correction technology is the same concept that is already used in many large industrial applications and in large professional power amplification systems that can not tolerate compromised performance.”
http://www.furmansound.com/pdf/pdfdata/FurmanSMPPlusWhitePaper.pdf
video (you might need to click Multimedia tab)
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=PL-PLUSC
It sounds to me like we have alot of people who are skeptical of this product. I installed one and have used it for two months. The proof is in my electric bill. $50.00 less per month over the past two months. I have tracked my energy consumption over the past 10 years and I clearly realize how much energy I use and what in my home uses the energy. The Powersave 1200 works. All of you who “think” they know how this product works are making an assumption. Use the product for a few months and compare your energy usage to previous years. Don’t be foolish and compare to the previous month. Common sense will tell you that the season and average temperature outside will affect your monthly energy consumption.
I was at a trade show today where they had one of these gadgets with a bunch of metering. I am an electrical engineer and understand power. Their demo was a motor with a capacitor (Their energy saving device) that could be connected or disconnected. They used this to show how the amps dropped in half when the capacitor was connected. I was able to take control of their measuring equipment for a short period of time. One of the meters was capable of measuring watts, so I connected it and measured 112 watts with the capacitor disconnected and 111 watts when the capacitor was connected. The amps were around 5.5 with the capacitor disconnected and about 2.8 with the capacitor connected. Electrical theory says that these devices do not work. My measurements with a watt meter confirmed what I thought.
Mike Landon,
Thank your for your question several weeks ago. I am sorry I am taking so long but, rather than shoot from the hip, I am being careful to research this one. I still need to get some rabbits down a hole before I answer your question so will be a while longer. At this point, though, I need to know if the $99 special plugs into a 110 VAC outlet or goes across 220 VAC at the breaker box.
On this blog there are atleast two entries that have no ‘reply’ button at the end. Your last comment is one such, so am writing at the very bottom of the blog. I hope that gets fixed by the time I am ready to post an answer.
Dan Rider
Hi I am Mick in Ohio, I installed the power save 1200 in my home (all electric)and saved 30 percent the first month. I tested this in my own home because I am a home builder and wanted to see if it works, if so, I would put in my new builds to meet and exceed the energy star requirements. Take my word it works.
The power save tend to do a better job in older homes (like mine) that do not have energy star appliances, furnaces, a/c units ect. Many energy star products already have built in devices to do the same as power save. Therefore some people will not realize the same results. also electric company due use capacitors to save electric, you see them but you just don’t know what they are. Electric companies also have tried to sell to the public but theirs is installed outside and benefits them, not the customer. Power to the house only goes one way thru the meter (unless you have a special meter installed), this keeps the electric company from electrocution when power goes out from people running small generators.
If you really want more facts go to the power save site, they have plenty of testimonials, fact sheets, government testing on power factor ect.
this product has worked in every home I have installed them in including all my families homes and everyone has save, all different but all saved with the lowest being a 18 month payoff for the product. It’s a win win either way, I have check the notify box to any comments and would be willing to talk direct, just leave e-mail in posting.
Hello Mick,
Thanks for your post. I have a few questions.
1. How can you be sure that all of the reduction of your power bill (30%) is attributed to the “Power Saver”?
2. Have you read the ENERGY STAR web page TomShams on Friday 9/18/09 refers to? That web page says,
“We have not seen any data that proves these types of products for residential use accomplish what they claim. Power factor correction devices improve power quality but do not generally improve energy efficiency (meaning they won’t reduce your energy bill).”
That same web page also says,
“ENERGY STAR does not qualify any Power Factor Correction Devices. Please send us an email at logomisuse@energystar.gov if you see one that claims to be ENERGY STAR certified.”
Since many are still claiming as you are that they are saving energy with these devices, I would like to ask one more question:
3. Would you be willing to do some “before and after” tests with your power saver and post the results? So far, all who have tested as I requested and commented here on this web site have either found no change, or perhaps so little of a change that they are unwilling to share the results. I have tested this device myself, with no positive results. I am waiting for someone who is reporting savings to give this device what I call a “true test,” and then report the results here.
All I want is for someone to test and report as follows:
Speed in seconds for ? revolutions of electric meter disc WITHOUT power saver = ?
Speed in seconds for ? revolutions of electric meter disc WITH power saver = ?
Use a stopwatch if available, and let each test last for more than 60 seconds for accuracy. Please report what appliances were on during each test, and make sure nothing can turn off or on during the test. Please be aware that some appliances can change speeds or modes while in use. Also please report the kh rating posted on the front of the electric meter. A very popular number is 7.2.
I look forward to seeing your response. I too, as you have said, would be willing to correspond direct with anyone through e-mail.
Thanks,
Robert
i saw where someone asked what components are in the ps1200 unit but ever saw an answer from what saw it appears that it might work
Mechdad,
I contains just capacitors, no electronics. Theories as to why it works and why it cannot work are no substitute for trying one out for 60 days. It depends on the house. If if does not lower your bill, you get your money back. That’s the only way to know if it lower your electric bill. What it will do for certain is protect your whole house from surge and spike damage (2000 joules). That is because capacitors will do that–regardless of the house.
Dan Rider
Dan Rider is absolutely right. And all the above talk is just that — talk. I have one of these and know that it works and why, and I work in heavy industry where we use the same techology ona larger scale for phase lag/phase angle correction all the time.
60-day money back guarantees are not offered by people trying to pull a fast one. This is a reputable company with easily testable technology. Are you so strapped for cash you can’t try one out yourself?
All this other theoretical crap and requests for further data are meaningless — YOU buy one and YOU play around with it. Why should we do your homework for you (Robert)? You’d just question the data, and blah blah blah some more.
So try one for yourself, or STFU, blowhards.
Chip2 – Thank you for the post on your usage.
That is what is really needed to tell if it works – compare each month with the exact same month 1 year ago. (And compare KWH not cost since rates change – and believe it or not some go down)
Your track record shows real savings on a constant basis.
Since along with all the regulars (washer – dryer – refridge…) We also have some others energy consumers here – 2 pond pumps (running 24hrs day 8 months) Large Jacuzzi – 3 pumps 12 months, 2 pellet stoves all winter, Household well pump, I can’t believe that it would take all that much time to save a few hundred dollars.
Again thanks