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Power-Save 1200: Recapture Your Electricity Line Loss?
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My friend received a flyer in the mail the other day from Hawkins Electric Service, Inc. about a product that could save him “up to 25% on [his] electricity bill without changing [his] lifestyle.” Apparently, all American homes poorly handle inductive loads and thus lose much of it without even using it. Inductive load is required on anything that runs on a motor and those motors require an amount of non-working reactive power to create an electromagnetic field to operate. Your electric company delivers this reactive power to your home without much knowledge of how much you’ll need and then your motor-equipped appliances draws on what it needs to operate. The excess is sent back to your box and is lost as heat, this loss is called I2R loss or line loss. The idea is that you’re paying for this I2R/line loss when you could’ve installed the Power-Save 1200 (the product that can save you up to 25%) and have it capture this power for later use.
My friend and I are both skeptical about the $300 product because neither one of us really buys the fact that we lose that much electricity in the form of line loss (I would agree that some loss occurs, but 25% of my electricity disappears as heat? I’m not sure). In a pretty exhaustive search online, I couldn’t really find much information discussing the recapture of unused load (there was a lot of other information about recapturing energy, but nothing on electricity in the home).
Phantom power drain: One interesting thing I did find was that a study by the Energy and Resources Group at UC Berkeley and the Energy Analysis Department at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory showed that in a study of ten California homes (yes, it’s a small data set, but what can you do), the total standby power used by each home ranged from 14W to 169W, the average being 67W. This corresponds to 5-26% of a home’s annual energy use. This power use is generally called phantom power drain and seems like an easier target for a savings of “up to 25%” than a $300 unit attached to your power box.
Lastly, somewhat related to this topic is the idea of energy saver systems for the induction motors themselves, because as they operate they lose a bit of the energy as heat depending on their efficiency. I discovered this extremely technical analysis on energy saver systems for induction motors that covers the marketing idea of making a particular induction motor driven item more efficient. Ultimately I believe the article is saying that they’re not worth it.
Anyone do any research on this idea of recapturing unused electrical load?
{ 178 comments, please add your thoughts now! }
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See Dan’s Data for this. (Search for ‘And you won’t even get a thank-you from the power company’). Basically, it’s useless for residential units.
It *might* be useful for commercial power usage, but it smells very much like a scam
And “Dan’s Data” is at link – the link didn’t go through, for some reason
All the power companies that I know of only bill people for “real power”, not “apparent power” – which has components of both real and reactive power (by the way, heat loss is real power, not reactive power). So this device may save energy but it won’t save you any money.
Industrial users do correct their power factor with banks of capacitors, but thats because they’re charged extra for loads that are too inductive and because they use so much more energy.
I have a feeling that if there was something that could save people a guaranteed 25% on the electricity bill every month, it would already be in place. Heck, for $300, it would pay for itself within one year for many residential houses. You would think the electric company would want to recapture that electricity so they could resell it. It sounds bogus to me.
I build energy billing systems for a living. This is almost certainly a scam. Your company bills you for kW, not kVA. It is also not possible to “capture this power for later use.”
If you had a big motor in a factory in your bathroom then this might be helpful.
This is from my newbie training course:
Manufacturers are often billed by their electric utility for having large inductive loads at their facilities. Inductive loads result from the storage of energy in magnetic fields, which occurs in coils of wire, such as in motor windings. To decrease high electricity bills resulting from this large inductive load, capacitors may be installed at the facility to increase the power factor.
Power factor is the ratio of real power to total power. Total power is made up of two components, called real power and reactive power. Reactive power, whether inductive or capacitive, always acts at right angles to real power. Reactive power is not useful in an industrial setting, as it does no real work when supplied to motors or other electrical devices. Some power companies bill customers for how much reactive power they use, and since reactive power supplies no benefit to the manufacturer, it is desirable to reduce or eliminate the reactive component of power that the manufacturer uses.
Power factor can be calculated as follows:
Power factor = Real Power (kW) / Total Power Supplied (kVA)
where
KW = kilowatts
kVA = kilovoltamperes
No expert but isnt kilowatts the same as kilovoltamps. volts times amps is watts hence kva=kw
kva=kw only if power factor = 100%
Several years ago I attended a “Franchise Expo” with a lot of booths staffed by people trying to sell dubious franchises at inflated prices. (One was selling ATMs at $10K a pop.)
One booth was offering some sort of “power save” system which sounded similar to this one. This one was intended for commercial rather than residential applications, like grocery stores which have lots of coolers and freezers drawing huge power. I didn’t investigate it, but scam or no scam it has been around a while.
Mine works great. I save around 18% per month.
David: How do you know you save 18%?
I too would like to know how David Glass confirms his 18% per month savings.
One item that I’d like to research, that might easliy save the average home owner 10-20% is the new LED light bulbs. The concept seems simple enough that if we replaced the normal and highly inefficient incandescent light bulbs with LED lights bulbs, that we could reduce our home lighting bill substantially. I wonder how they rank next to florescent bulbs?
Thanks !
I would be *fascinated* to hear how David Glass saves 18%.
LED lighting for the home is not reliable today. Maybe it will be in the future. Compact flouresents and cold cathode reduce wattage up to 75%, and can last up to three times longer than traditional lighting. And cold cathode is dimmable.
There is some kw reduction for motor loads for the home, 5% to 10% only in kw reduction on those loads only. Mainly for HVAC units, pool and spa pumps and small motor loads. No savings for lighting, and non-resistive loads (like ovens, electric stoves, heat from dryers) which have no wasted energy.
My thought on the excessive savings comes from people truly wanting to lower the costs, and once they have purchased an “energy savings device”, the customer becomes more aware of the energy usage and starts paying more attention to wasted energy from lights being left on when not needed, and more attention to lowering thermostat temperatures in the winter and raising in the summer.
One value of the home unit similar to a power saver, http://www.kvarenergysavings.com and http://www.usesmfg.com, is the added benefit provided for power protection (TVSS is included within the unit) from surges, spikes and lightning strikes that can destroy thousands of dollars of a home assets, like enetertainment systems, home theaters, computers, tv’s and etc.
LED lighting for the home is not reliable today. Why and How?
I usa thisa equipment … I sava so much money that the electric company now pay me!
This is from Atlanta: (BTW: All electric households are common down here)
ATLANTA — A CBS 46 Investigation uncovered what appears to be a needless waste of power in some metro Atlanta homes.
A device called the “Power-Save 1200” promises to cut electric bills up to 25 percent. The U.S. Department of Energy has endorsed the technology, but not a single power company in the Southeast is willing to talk about the product.
Motor-based appliances pull in more kilowatts of energy than people use. The leftover energy flows out of the home, completely wasted. The makers of the Power-Save 1200 claim that if a homeowner installs the device near the breaker panel, it will store the leftover power for future use.
The device was intriguing to one Atlanta family. With one toddler and another on the way, the Marks are a high-energy family.
Click here to find out more!
“I have an electric lawnmower, so I have been kicking that on as well,” said homeowner Greg Mark.
“I’m doing potty training, so the dryer is on every day,” said wife Michelle.
The Marks agreed to let CBS 46 install the device in their home. Their electrician said this was the first device he’s ever seen in a home. The electrician said he normally installs the device in businesses.
“It’d be interesting to see if we can really reduce our power without having to change our lifestyle too drastically,” said Greg.
Several months later, the Marks consulted their electric bills for the results.
“The real measure is year to current month and that was a big difference!” said Greg.
The family’s energy use is down 240 kilowatt hours a month, saving the family about $15 to $20 a month. If the trend continues, the $300 investment in the device will be paid back in about 18 months.
The Marks have cut the bill by about 12 percent so far, but with summer approaching, the Marks will be cranking up their energy-hogging air conditioning. That means the largest savings may be yet to come.
“I’m looking forward to cranking it up,” said Greg. “So we’ll see what happens!”
It certainly appears that they saw savings – with an electric mower, and heavy dryer use.
Don,
You wrote that “The U.S. Department of Energy has endorsed the technology, but not a single power company in the Southeast is willing to talk about the product.” Can tell me where I can find that endorsement? Thanks.
Dan Rider
David Glass saved 18% by hawking this shite to stupid people and paying his utility bill. A moron and his cash do easily part.
Even CBC got duped! Wow!
Why do so many people comment about what they have no idea about. It only shows their ignorance. Our power company had to give us a $300 credit for the year because we came way under our balanced billing usage for previous years. The world is full of ignorant people who are nay sayers, even when they have absolutely no experience. Nay sayers probably never accomplish much because they are never willing to try anything. Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, Wright Brothers, etc. name them- not one of them was a nay sayer like you are.
Why can’t i get a simple answer if this product works or not. I have been looking for reviews for about 3 hours now and can’t get a straight answer. The people who are saying no appear to have no concrete evidence and the people who are saying it works seem really convincing. my electrician told me about it and said it would save me about 25%. I have a big house and my fixed electric bill is about $400 a month, does anyone know if it would work for me.
Hi Frank, you got a 60 day money back guarantee. So try it for two months and if it doesn’t work return it. That’s what I am doing. I bought it feb.3rd. Installed it Feb.6th. My feb. meter reading was on the 17th.My Jan. bill was $227.77 and my Feb. bill was $194.41.That’s with the unit only working for 11 days.My March bill should tell the real story however.
That’s all I can tell you for now, Paul.
frank i installed one for a friend who is a general contractor i do electrical work for. his bill was always right at $700 (big shop big house). for the past 2 months his bills $520 and $534. does it work wont promise but sure looks that way.
I bought one and we have used it around 4 months now. Our power bill dropped $75.00 from the previous month and $50.00 from the previous year in the same month). Even with the ac on our power bill was around $200.00 a month and we had never had it under @50 to 275. With the ac and heat it was as high as $350.00. Will see how it goes this winter.
This summer our nephew has a bus with an air conditioner and freezer and it only raised our power $140.00 a month.
Will see how it works out for a six month period.
Irene
Frank, you are absolutely right! Everyone who says it’s a scam, has no real life evidence to back it up. It seems that they just like to hear themselves talk. It cracks me up when you see an “electrician” say they’ve been one for numerous years and claims it’s a scam, but they never actually installed one, and saw the before and after utility bills with their own eyes. See that’s where the ultimate truth is. The Utility bill! So far, I have not seen any claims from someone that has one installed that it doesn’t work. I am in the same boat as you. Does it work? Is it a scam? I guess the only way to find out is to try it! I live in Las Vegas and I have a 3200 sq. ft. home with 2 A/C units. Now, I don’t claim to be knowledgeable in this field, nor do I have any any experience with this item. Bottom line, I am just looking for ways to save money. From what I understand, this unit is designed to help reduce power waste involved with inductive motors (A/C units, refrigerators, washers/dryers, etc.) In Vegas, these units are running all year-round so I believe it would work well for me, if it does what it claims to do. For others that don’t have A/Cs and many appliances with inductive motors in them, then it would be a waste of money.
Just my $.02
Frank, your simple answer is NO, there is no cost benefit to these devices on a residential application.
Mike, here is the evidence to back it up…
http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf
JC, the engineer only talks about line loss. The power factor correction caused a 2.44 amp reduction in motor current that causes 293 watts less energy to be used. He never addresses that and wether or not it provides a savings.
That powerelectronics.com writeup makes the unimaginably ignorant assumption that every motor in your house is merely a 1 HP motor – check the numbers in the table, they assume that everything uses their assumed 877Ws per hour (which they based on a 1 hp motor operating with an 85%)
They also only consider line loss which is trivial and finally and even more significantly they failed to recalculate the impact of the inductive power factor
They did recompute the amperage using the power factor to 9.75A but didn’t extend it to the net power consumption of 1.17KW instead of using 877W
Add to that air conditioners and many large capacity refrigerators, freezers, and washers use more than 1 HP motors (compressors, fans, drive motors, etc.) and their conclusions are based on fundamentally flawed assumptions from the start.
Example – a moderate 3,500 sq ft home with two 40,000 BTU central air units with a SEER factor of 16 consume approximately 5KW when running – if they operate 18 hours a day in the summer they consume 2700KWh per month – not 473KWh
With approximately 23% of that power wasted due to inductive loss – that equates to approximately 621KWh per month – if a power factor compensator can improve the power factor to 0.87 instead, that equates to a net decrease in waste of 270KWh per month which at $0.10/KWh is about $27/month for just the air conditioners – add in washer/dryer motors, refrigerators/freezers, etc. and it’s conceivable you could save $200-300/yr
It mostly depends on you particular power usage profile – folks with large highly air conditioned homes in hot climates would see the largest net decreases and thus the fastest payback
so mike did you ever install one and did it save you any money yet, i know it’s early but i would like to know as so as you can.
think about it, if it works in a commercial or industrial setting, off setting inductive loads on motors why would it not work in a residential setting. if you were single and did two loads of laundry a week you would still benefit with the unit, you just wouldn’t see as big a savings as someone with a wife and three kids that play five different sports. My father managed a tube mill in TN. and installed one reducing the electric consumption by 28%. he installed one in his home in central PA, on dec27 checked his meter and again in ten days for the same ten day period in ’07 and ’08 he used 18.5% less elec. that is were the savings come from less usage. check youtube and type in powersaver
Daullary – I do think about it (every day – as I am employed as a METER ENGINEER for a large electric utility).
Here is the answer as simply as I can put it.
Commercial and Industrial customers pay a complex bill that includes charges for KWH (energy consumed), KW (max rate of consumption) and Power Factor (measure of electrical efficiency in an AC circuit).
Residential customers are billed only on KWH (energy consumed).
So – for a Commercial customer, any device which correct Power factor can result in a lower bill. Such devices are very common for that class of customer. You will not find one person arguing against PF correction for C&I customers.
But for a residential customer, improving a parameter (PF) which is NOT used to calculate the bill will have NO effect on the bill.
The meter measures the real KWH. Improving PF has no effect on the amount of KWH that the meter measures.
Now think about this -
My company spends tens of thousands of dollars/year educating our customers on how to truly reduce their bills. I am sure that you local utility sends you inserts with your bill with Tips for lowering your bills. There is tremendous economic and political pressure on us to avoid building any new power plants. If these types of devices worked, we would be recommending them.
Indeed, the Govt would be forcing us to install them on your house (to avoid CO2 emmissions from new power plants).
PS – Comparing usage from week to week across years has very little value, as so many other things will affect usage (weather, life style changes, new appliances, etc). Hardly a controlled experiment that proves anything.
I am electrician and i have installed several power save units. My most recent house i installed one on, saved 20% on her bill from July to august.
She ran the same amount of her home equipment. Her ac is set at a controled temp by a programable thermostat. Her bill In July was $100 and in august it went down to $80. And her house is only 1100 sq.ft.
you cannot compare month to month. You must compare the month from this year to the same month from the previous year. You compare usage, (kw hours consumed), not cost, because in my area power company has increased costs 12.5% each year for the past 2 years. The comparison is all about reduced usage of kw hours. the less you use, the less you are billed. Largest savings (15%-25%) are on commercial applications. Smaller savings (10-15%) have been on homes. Also, this is a capacitor based product. It has no benefit to resistive loads (the heat in a dryer, toasters, heatting element in a d/w, oven etc…), but is quite effective on inductive loads (A/C, motors in dryers, washers, etc…).
And last, tests have shown that when applied to a panel that has combined inductive and resistive loads, the results are not that good. Some resistive loads have seen their power factor drop significantly, offsetting the increase in power factor of inductive loads. Best to choose your largest load (in most cases the a/c) and install at the unit. If in the southeast and 9 months out of the year a/c is 70% of your usage (not uncommon), a 20% reduction in kw consumption on the a/c alone will math out to about a 12-14% savings. For all you thomas doubters out there, if you have no experience or fact based research to back you, why are you replying?
it is also a surge suppressor
Scam it seems. Installed the Power Save 1200 (average electric bill $270) and we saved $1 first month, bill went up $10 next month. Usage did not vary over the three months. We were replacing the electric panel anyway so I thought I would give it a shot. Learn from my mistake. If something changes down the road, I’ll come back and repost. Scott
scott is the 1200 installed at right? if main breaker at top of panel 1200 needs to be in that top breaker spot. if main breaker at bottom of your panel it needs to be at thee bootom. just checking made that mistake on my first one. also maybe your house already has a power factor close to 0 and you would not need the 1200.
So, Scott, did you compare Aug 08 to Aug 07, or Aug 08 to Jul 08? The true comparison would be Aug to Aug, but I would also say you should compare more than 2 years, because weather may vary enough to cause dips. But, if you compare 5 or 10 years (however much data you get from the utility co or records), then that would be a good comparison. Yours is the first comment I have seen of actual Power Save installation that says it does not work.
JC your link to Rynone Engineering is a joke! This guy is a one man show with sales of 45k a year! So why should I believe his BS? As for the Scott Simons maybe you didn’t install it correctly!
Don’s article from CBS seems to add some credibility to this product as well as others on this site.
What the heck if it doesn’t work I’ll take if off and sell it on E-bay!!
JC, thanks for your 7/30 comment and the link. My wife thinks we should get one of these and I have been trying to find a coherent rebuttal.
I am tempted to buy this thing because we have:
One 1hp potable water well pump*
One 1 hp lawn and garden watering pump(* in summer only)
Two attic ventilators(* in summer only)
Three motors related to a 14 year old 11 SEER 4-ton heat pump*
One washer*
One dryer*
One dishwasher
One freezer
Three ceiling fans
One vacuum sweeper
One garage door opener
One range fan
Two motors in a Wally Whiz-bang bathroom heater/ventilator
One pump motor in bath tub
I live on the NE Cape Fear River just outside Wilmington, NC, and the items with an * get heavy use.
On top of this, I have a pv powered 30-tube Apricus solar hot water heater, (which works great!) installed a year ago, and we have replaced all incandescent bulbs with fluorescent. We have a 2,000 sq ft, one story house that is well insulated, and have been tracking power usage for two years now, using graphs and data tables.
I have been all over the web looking for evals of the p-s 1200. One of the better sites I found for detailed, understandable evals was on the Amazon site
http://askville.amazon.com/Power-Save-1200-lower-monthly-energy-bill/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=4574892
Because of the number of motors and usage, the added surge protection (we are in a high lightening area), and the recent rate increase by our electric company, I am strongly leaning toward buying this thing, but the price is just obscene for what is in it.
Everywhere I’ve read has said the typical home doesn’t have enough stuff to warrant one of these things, think about how often those appliances you list are running and how much power they can potentially release back into the system, it’s not that much. I don’t think it’s worth it.
you can get a p-s 1200 on ebay for around $100.00 as opposed to the $300.00 at power-save.
Can we all agree on one thing here? The amount of money which you pay your local electric company is calculated DIRECTLY from the KWH meter on the side of your house.
I have been a Meter Engineer at the largest electric utility in America for over 25 years. This is what I know to be true. The meter on your house accurately measures the REAL component of AC power in KiloWatts / KiloWatthours. Residential customers are billed only for Real power (KWH). Check your own utilities tariffs, most are on line (we do business in 11 states, they are all posted).
These “power saver devices” are essentially Power Factor correction devices. Correcting a poor power factor will have no effect on the REAL component of AC power, as measured in your electric meter (residential). So, while this device may indeed correct the power factor and reduce the reactive power component, the load (Real Power) as measured by your meter will not show any change.
Commercial/Industrial customers are metered with more expensive types of meters that capture both the Real and the Reactive component of power. They are billed under completely different tariffs which penalize for having poor Power Factors. For those customers, improving the power factor WILL result in a lower bill. This is well understood among commercial energy managers.
As a service, we even help our commercial customers calculate the amount of PF correction necessary to lower their bills.
Sign me –
5 years of college to get a Bachelor’s in Electrical Engineering.
5 years of on the job experience to become a licensed Professinal Engineer.
25 years evaluating electricity meters.
And a lifetime of hating to see people throw money away.
Dick,
What state are you licensed as a PE in? If you do not mind can you also provide your license number?
Thanks for the info.
Don
Ohio License number PE.502XX (I prefer not to post my full license number to an open web site).
you did 5 years of college to be a meter tech.
Actually, I completed my Bachelor’s in Electrical Engineering in four years. Follow that with 5 years on the job experience before being allowed to take the PE license test, which I passed on the first try. Follow that with over 25 years of real world experience with metering from 120/240 volt residential up to 765,000 volt Transmission system metering.
PS – I have 4 meter technicians who work for me, but nice try at a cheap shot.
Hello Dick,
Your advice and experience convinced me. I almost fell for it.
Thank you,
Drew
Question: if you lower the current/amps required to run the motor does that not reduce the amount of kw consumed? And if so, would this not save energy usage?
Your argument is fallacious, you don’t actually look at the device or how it works. I am trying to be skeptical, and maybe save my father the trouble of buying one. Can someone who has posted on the theory of how it can’t work actually look at one?
Dick – the meter measures the KWhs of electricity flowing into the home – the power factor measures the efficiency of how that power is used – in other words it’s essentially a waste factor – an average power factor for a home of 0.77 means that 23% of the REAL electricity flowing into the home is wasted (mostly to due to inductive load loss but also some net line loss)
Go back and check your college texts on inductive load loss and ways of improving circuit efficiency by augmenting the IR circuit into an IRC circuit
Please Look up Power triangle.
The residential meter measures the REAL portion of the power. (generally drawn as the horizontal axis on the power triangle).
Inductive loads, such as a motor, require Reactive power to function. (Generally drawn as the vertical axis on the power triangle).
The utility supplies voltage. The connected load determines the amperage. The product of Volts x Amps is the Apparent Power. or KVA (generally drawn as the hypotenuese of the power triangle.
The PF is the ratio of Real power to the Apparent power. It is also the cosine of the angle in the power triangle.
Adding capacitors simply reduces the amount of reactive power which the utility must supply. It has NO effect on the real portion of the equation.
Does correcting the PF lead to lower line currents? Yes. (and your utility appreciates it, but unless your an industrial customer, they won’t reward you for that).
Does correcting the PF lead to lower REAL power/lower bills on my house? No.
I certainly understand improving circuit efficiency. I wish you would understand how residential meters work. They do NOT bill on KVA. They bill on KWH. You can reduce KVA dramatically, but you are not changing the Real KWh being consumed.
PS – I would be interested to know how you arrived at the .77 PF figure for an average home? Can you give a link?
My company gathers data from >4,000,000 residential meters per month. We do not gather KVA data or Reactive Data or PF data (as they are not part of the billing process).
We also gather data from > 50,0000 Commercial/Industrial customer. We apply substantial penalties when their PF drops below ~.8 to .85 depending on contracts / state tariffs.
Dave,
If my memory serves me correctly the electric company bills customers for watts or kWh is this not correct? And, I also believe that the measure of watts is Volts X Amps X pf is this not corrects? Now my bench testing using graduating length of copper wire showed that the longer the wire the greater the amount of watts were needed to overcome the distance to the load. Now if this is not true then I need to send my Fluke and Power Sight meters back to the factory to be recalibrated. What you should see is that when the power factor goes up the amps go down. When you calculate the watts the sum is a wash, but there are less amps in the line. I2R line loss then says that wire resistance becomes another variable in the equation. (How much, how long, what gage, going to what type of load that is how old, what type of condition) Is it possible that you have not taken all of the variables into account?
Good point Rick.
I did some more searching and found this excellent write up.
http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions1.php
This fellow did such a good job of explaining it, I decided to just point the curious to his site.
I agree with his results, and I now stand humbly corrected on this site.
“This device may save a typicaly user 4 cents worth of electricity annually.”
(Residential !!!!!, please do not reply to me with “I put PF correction in down at the plant and it works…etc” I never argued against this for Commercial users).
What’s interesting about this is, the guy who wrote the article at http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions1.php states further down in the article that the unit can and will work IF it is installed AT THE SOURCE of the power (I installed mine at the meter/load center on the utility side), NOT at the breaker panel. See “Stage Four – the Economics” in the article.
Had you actually read the entire article, you would have noted it here rather than simply stating that the whole thing is a complete fraud. Granted, utility companies such as the one that I am employed with (Progress Energy FL) doesn’t like customers using these technologies to begin with.
Therefore, I would assume the same applies across the board with utility companies who are increasing rates which claiming to be mindful of the end-consumers that pay their bills to provide people such as you and I a job to go to so we can pay our bills as responsible adults as well rather than sounding off like 5 year old children who are trying to justify their decision to steal the crayons from Wal-Mart rather than asking their parents to pay for them.
And FYI – I installed one of these units on my home 14 months ago, and over a 12 month period, I have noted a drop of approx 902kWh usage, with no changes to our appliances or usage at any point during that 14 month period. It might not sound like much, but when you are billed on kWh usage at a grand total of $0.11497/kWh for usage below 1000 and $0.13588/kWh for anything over 1000, it saves.
BTW Floridians- if you use Progress Energy, get on board with the EnergyWise program… It does help, so long as you don’t mind certain luxuries being turned off beyond your control on rare occasion for short periods of time during peak usage, as Progress Energy will put small credits on your bill for enabling them to do this – the purpose on their part is to reduce overall localized utility loads in areas where the infrastructure is on the brink of overload during peak usage. I elected to allow them control over my water heater, heat pump and electric heat…
Every little bit helps.
JL –
Your own words (“I installed mine at the meter/load center on the utility side”)…
Since you claim to work for Progress Energy, you might want to reread your own companies service guide. I found it on the companies web site.
(Hint – you are NOT allowed to put anything ahead of the meter).
Again based on your own words above –
paragraph 4 – “with no changes to our appliances or usage at any point”
paragraph 5 – “I elected to allow them control over my water heater, heat pump and electric heat…”
How can you boast of savings “with no changes” and then state that you allow the utility to control your loads?
Could it just possibly be that having the utility TURN OFF certain loads at their own chosen times would somehow result in LOWERING your KWH usage?
As for your companies policy somehow attempting to prevent customers from using technology to reduce their bills – again, using P.E.’s web site, there seems to be a menu of information on how to reduce your energy usage.
Now turning to the tough part – Your 3rd paragraph is incomprehensible to me. I have a professional license which can be revoked if I act illegally OR UNETHICALLY. My company also as a code of ethics which is taken quite seriously. Your boss at Progress Energy has made available this number> 1.866.8ETHICS
for you to report improper behaviour. I am sure that the local papers would love to hear from “an insider” with Progress Energy who can document that the company engages in willful conduct to supress valid technologies that would truly save consumers money.
Wow… There’s a company man for ya.
First, Ethics is the decision made to do the right thing based on one’s moral values, not what a corporation with the soul interests of money being in mind, with the ability to cut even your department loose at any time to “save money on the bottom line to appeal to the share holders” as they so often put it – which is also what they teach you in Ethics courses in colleges throughout America, and Ethics is required as one of the many base-prerequisites for a degree of any kind, which means if you boast of all the knowledge on paper that you do, you should be knowledgeable in the area of Ethics and how they are applied. So to say that it is unethical in any way is just flat out ridiculous as it appears your moral and ethical responses are based on religious principles that could be argued, just as all others.
Second, I’m a lineman who has been granted permission by my superiors to use the product in exchange for the denial of raises across the board while increasing our billable rates per kWh. What the website doesn’t tell you is that if you go through the proper channels (ethical/moral? imagine that…), you may get your wish depending on how you present your problem.
Third, I’ve had the EnergyWise system installed in my home for over 3 years now, whereas this little device-I’ve only had for 14 months. The line-loads have decreased in my area due to foreclosures, which means the EnergyWise system is not needed nor triggered nearly as often as it was in the past, and I’ve still noticed a decrease over a 12 month period in the 14 months of having this device installed. So you trying to make a point on this in specific is completely invalid.
OK. I’ve seen enough independent evals to believe the thing is a scam. Thanks. Besides, it is made in China. So it is off my list of things to do to save energy.
On to building a windmill. No kidding. Can DC be connected to the heating element in a water heater, and produce heat safely? I need to augment my 30 tubes in the winter, to stay off the grid in the winter. That would put us off the grid entirely for hot water. This would seem a simple way to use DC from a windmill. Or do I need an inverter?
After that, I need to convince my wife to use the solar dryer, aka clothesline. Rottsa ruck there.
Have you noticed this what ever the public thinks they need or want to buy, a company will come up with it. Like when you the people hear shortage. The price goes up. Years ago i had a van top of line TV VCR the works. Now we cant give them away. Well the new thing is electric cars, you know we need green. Point being what ever is hot is going to be costly. It all about making money, lookout for you pockets. Recapping why don’t we all quit using electricity for say day or 2. Hum that might scare them in to thinking. Look at gas we have the high and the low. People stop using gas and a low. Does anyone want to start a strike? It be like palm Sunday, went a week without electric. Recapping maybe we need a strike to solve 15% of your bill. Bye
This device “Power Save 1200″ or similar device will only save you power when a motor is runing. However when no motors on running the capacitor will cost you money (charging, discharging ect.)on every cycle of line voltage 24/7. That is why some people have noticed an increase in there electric bill during months which they required no heating or cooling (largest users of motor current. All Energy Star appliances have capacitors in them, that is how they get some of the energy savings.
This is a very interesting conversation. It seems as though the potential cost savings is pennies. I like hearing about people who are worried about their 8 and 10 cents per KWH. I live in California and the starting place is 12 cents. I pay every month in the 41 cent tier. This means that my bills are $500 and more a month. I have about 300- 500 KWH a month to shave before I get into the 35 Cent perkwh Tier. Based on these numbers can this devise save me even 50KWH per month, which would give me a $20 Savings?
Those of you looking at how much money you saved, or didn’t save, aren’t taking one very important factor into account. Electricity costs per KW have gone up dramatically in the past year or so. Your power company may have posted a 5 – 10% increase to your costs from one year to the next. Or even, one bill to the next.
Check out KW usage to determine whether the device is doing anything for you.
Not to mention DEMAND AND VARYING AMBIENT TEMPERATURE
I’m an energy engineer and agree completely with Dick the Engineer. He is right both on the electrical fundamentals (except as noted below: reactive power can show up as real power in line losses, but this is negligible inside buildings) as well as how the rate structures work.
I work for an energy consulting firm and do energy audits regularly that include rate structure analyses and power factor correction. My brother sent me a link to this PowerSave device asking if it was legitimate because someone at his company is trying to install them on their company buildings to save energy.
If it’s nothing more than a capacitor bank, it can only save money if there’s a utility charge for low power factors (and you actually have a low power factor!) or the demand charge is based on kVA, as Dick mentioned.
Regardless, the claim that a capacitor will cut down on actual energy use (kWh) is almost a complete lie and is deceptive at best: reactive power does increase line current even though the current (called reactive or imaginary) is not used by the end device but is sent back to the power grid, but since there are losses along the copper wires not all of the reactive component is really sent back to the grid. The strange truth: so-called imaginary current results in real losses. So the claim about “heat loss” along wires from reactive power is technically true but is not being conveyed truthfully.
These line losses, inside a home or building, are negligible and are certainly not 25% of a person or company’s power bill. The utility company, on the other hand, who is sending very large amounts of current (to supply hundreds or thousands of consumers) across very long distances (many miles) does have to consider these losses from “imaginary” (reactive) current. This is why they put capacitors along their distribution systems.
But a capacitor on a home is worthless because:
(1) there is no power factor penalty on residential rate structures, and
(2) line losses due to imaginary or reactive current flowing through the house and back to the grid (recall that reactive power is not consumed, it’s just exchanged between the energy source (utility) and sink (your devices)) are negligible.
As was said by others, if this could really save 25% energy or $$ on homes, it would be out there and growing fast. Where it can save $ (not energy) is on industrial consumers who are billed on reactive demand (kVA) or penalized for low power factors. Not surprisingly, capacitor banks are common on such facilities, and we investigate and recommend them on a regular basis. But note that it is because it saves $$ on the utility bills; it does not save energy (enough to speak of) inside a building.
sign me
-BS in Biomedical Engineering, Georgia Tech
-MS in Mechanical Engineering, Cornell Univ.
-EIT working on getting PE
-working for 2 years at consulting firm specializing in energy services
david you may be right about all of that you seem to have way more education than me, and that was a great read for me. i am an electrician 2 year degree in industrial and commercial electricity then a 5 year apprentice program. this is just what i saw when i installed a 1200 for a friend of mine who bought one. with no one home at his house one of three ac units running and just a few lights on. 17.9 amps without the 1200 on turned it on dropped to 13.4. do i think they work i hope so to early for me to tell. but my amp meter does not lie right. again though thanks for that power factor lesson from u and the other eng..
This is not necessarily so. I have been dealing with capacitor based equipment for 10 years now. I just installed units on a commercial store, and reduced KW and kWh by 8.6%. This may not sound like much, but when the electric bill is $55K mo. the saving mount up quickly. Close monitoring of units installed provide detailed data on just what is being affected. When you can see saving in the KW and kWh categories it is evident that I2R reduction have reduced the amount of power needed from the electric company. Measuring amperage on the load side of the capacitor proves the motors are still getting the power necessary to operate properly. Some people familiar with capacitor banks do not understand the necessity of locating correctly sized capacitor units as close to the load as practical. These commercial applications will also work in residential settings. Although I do agree that you will probably not see a 25% savings but rather more like 5% to 10%. Generalizing on how much savings is impossible because there are unknown variables such as wire type and size, length of run, type, age, and condition of the motors, number of motors being serviced. I will defy anyone to say these units will NOT save any electricity, and I will put my credentials up against theirs anytime.
Whoa tiger!
Here is an excellent site which explains
how and how much money such devices can save a RESIDENTIAL consumer. Check his math, post a reply on his site.
http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions1.php
The math shows you are absolutely right!
This device will save energy.
… about “4 cents per year”
So, while I am not challenging your statement that this device will save energy, I think the more salient point is – Is it worth the price?
I hold a degree in Electrical Engineering from MIT, have 30 years experience and agree completely with Dick. IMO, everything he is saying is correct. Residential users are billed only for REAL power used, KWH, not for reactive power. This reactive power comes into your house, into the inductive loads and back out without being charged. You will be charged for the tiny portion of the extra current that gets turned to heat in the wiring. And power factor correction will reduce it, but that will only result in very small savings and can’t account for the savings claims or IMO make the device worthwhile.
What these companies have done is take what works in an industrial setting and incorrectly apply it to residential. In industry, the customer is penalized and pays for having a power factor other than one because the utility knows that it is significant enough to matter. And it matters most to the utility, because that reactive power that generates tiny amounts of heat in your home wiring, will generate a truly significant amount of waste in the miles of utility lines. They don’t want excess power sloshing back and forth because it costs them money. So, to discourage it, they put an extra charge on industrial users, but not residential.
And here’a another point to consider. You can only correct the power factor by installing the right size capacitors suited to the actual load to offest the actual inductance. If you just wing it. you could just as easily increase the reactive power flowing because now you have big capacitors on the line all the time, which are just another reactive load. In other words, unless you have the correct amount to cancel out the inductance of motors, etc, you are just creating another different reactive load.
Finally, all the nonsense about comparing bills, month to month or the same month one year to the previous year are just about meaningless. To see what really happens you would need to run a stable load like your AC blower or a pool pump constantly for an extended period with and without the power saver. Then you could do the correct comparison. I’d like to see an organization like ConsumersReports do that.
Only scams SPAM as much as they do. They claim to store power. Give me a break!!
It would take thousands of dollars of batteries to store what they claim. Save your money.
I am using an Energy Controler from KVAR Inc. The technology they offer is different from other competitors in that, they have developed and patented a “sizing” unit for their capacitance devices. There are approximately 600 customized variations of their device. The sizing unit was developed by a NASA engineer, and is patented. The KVAR Energy Controller (KVAR EC) is LEED certified, UL listed, CSA listed, RoHS compliant, and has been officially tested, and the results documented by NASA.
For the commercial/industrial market, there are three variations of the patented sized equipment as follows: a SINGLE PHASE UNIT called the US1, which sizes all single phase equipment and two separate THREE PHASE UNITS called the US2 and US3. The US2 and US3 are capable of sizing fractional motors up to 75hp and up to 300hp respectively. Further, these sizing units can be coupled to effectively size equipment in excess of 300hp. For the residential market, there are two models offered; the PU-1100 for single-phase 100a service application and the PU-1200 for single-phase 200a service application.
The sizing unit is a dip switch device to step capacitance for comparative testing purposes, and comes with software to allow for calculations of ROI, KWh savings, and projected monetary savings on the spot. The major benefit is that the entire electrical system at the facility is fine tuned based upon real data obtained as a result of the sizing process and not by a single “catch-all” capacitor bank. Since the units are custom designed based upon hard data to determine the exact amount of capacitance required as opposed to the generalized calculations used by competitive products, the result is a small and compact, yet highly cost effective unit that is specific to the particular equipment where its application is warranted.
The sizing process also helps in determining the best application to achieve the greatest ROI for the client. Through the sizing process, they run a cost benefit analysis to determine how to achieve maximum savings for the least expense. Most commonly, individual units are installed on the load side at the power disconnect for specific equipment or in applications where the cost for individual units would not justify the ROI, a single unit would be installed at the circuit panels. In some instances, they have installed one or two custom units at select equipment and then installed a separate unit at the main circuit panel to cost effectively fine tune the remainder of the facility, as the installation of multiple equipment specific units would not have provided the greatest ROI. In this manner, they are able to reduce overall project costing, while achieving more accurate PF correction and a reduction in Reactive Power losses, achieving an overall corrected PF of typically .95-.99 lagging.
With increased PF and lowered amp draw dur to reduced RP bounce, the watt usage drops dramatically.
The patented “sizing” unit is nothing more than a sales gimmick to lure distributors. Of all the approximately 600 customized variations of their device, these are the ones listed on the UL certification website.
Power factor correction capacitors, Cat. Nos. US1, US2, US3 Series with or without suffix numbers. The US1 series may alternatively be marked PU-1050, PU-1100, PU-1200, or PU1400; the US2 series may alternatively be marked PU-3100 or PU-3200; the US3 series may alternatively be marked PU-3400.
Since the difference in the units is the amount of KVAR I rather doubt they have 600 various units or need that many different units.
Jim,
I used to think like you do about needing all those batteries (capacitors do not store energy very long)so must be a scam. But I recently realized that ‘saving the power for later’ is to make it easy for laymen to understand. “Later” actually means later in the 60Hz cycle. In much over-simplified terms, when the voltage of the 60Hz sine wave rises, inductors (e.g.motors, flourescent light ballasts)resist current rise, but a capacitor sucks up the current. When the sine wave descends, the motor sucks up current and a capacitor gets rid of it. That’s a very rough explanation, but a capacitor in parallel with a motor can compensate for the power factor (current and voltage being out of phase) problem. For a 60Hz application, the capacitor only has to store power for about 120th of a second. This is why modern induction motors come equiped with a capacitor connected. The idea of putting a capacitor in parallel with a motor to ‘give the power back later’ has been accepted practice for years. This would not be a requirement for Energy Star rating if it were not effective.
But a motor’s capacitor cannot perfectly match the motor (it would result in a resonant tank circuit which would not be good). Also, there is the inductance caused by any flourescent light ballasts to be compensated for. I investigated the power save 1200 and learned that it is not one capacitor but a fixed bank of them. Power Save has made bigger ones for industry for about 30 years. There are some industrial ones (made by other companies)that adjust according the situation, but cost much more. But if a residential meter doesn’t care about power factor, will it make any significant difference in a home’s bill?
I just called Power Save and they said the 60-day guarantee is uncondition but does not include shipping (@$10). But they also said they can do free shipping out. So, instead of all this theoretical gas, I wish the critics would either keep their views to themselves or actually try one for 60 days and get past theory to reality. With the option to try one out like that, why do they feel so free to rant and rave without actually trying one? According to all calculations, the bumble bee cannot fly. But such theoretical discussions are a cope out for watching one fly.
Dan Rider, engineering translator (Japanese)
Jim,
After I posted my reply, I realize that I omitted two things regarding the Power Save.
1. Even with the money back guarantee and no net shipping, there is still a financial risk: the licensed electrician’s charge to install and then remove it. So there is risk involved in having something worth saying about Power Saver. Should those who have not done their home work volunteer their opinions?
2. The most a trial can determine is whether or not it makes any significant difference in THERI house. One has to be certain that there is not one case of it making a difference (or not one case when it did NOT make a difference, before one can (accurately) make a generalized conclusion either way.
Now, in logic, one positive case disproves a generalized negative. So when there are mixed reports, a critic has to do a disprove EVERY positive report before he has a right to say ‘nay’.
Dan Rider
Dan, I have been looking at this device (PS-1200). The videos I have seen show it hooked to only one side / leg of your electrical supply. Would you not have to have 2 units (one for each leg) since the load at the breaker box is balanced between the 2 sides?
Mike,
I have not seen the video but have the printed installation instructions. If you go to Power-Save.com, click on ‘PS1200′ and on the PS1200 page, click on ‘PS1200 install instructions’ you will get a pdf file. I will quote the relevant part here:
“3.Install a two pole 20 amp 220 volt breaker and secure the two red leads (wires) of the PU-1200, one on each side of the breaker. Secure the green wire from the PU-1200 to the ground bar in the panel. Leave breaker in “OFF” position until power is restored to panel.”
(The device used to be called ‘PU1200′, but this is the same criter. I wouldn’t want to call anything ‘PU’.) As you can see, the device has three leads: by connecting ‘one on each side’ of a 220V breaker, two leads straddle 220V and, in connecting to both sides of the 220V service, connect to one side of each 110V leg. The third lead connects to the middle (ground), thus connecting to the other side of both legs. So one unit takes care of both 110V legs as well as the 220V circuit. I hope this helps.
Dan, thanks for your help. They sell what looks to be a knock-off (I didn’t see any U.L. label)of the ’1200 unit with “about” the same name on e-bay for ~ $99.00 (in a plactic electrical box). I went to the web site of KVAS (they use a metal electrical box) and they show the internal parts in one of their videos. There are 2 what look like Air Conditioner Unit Cap’s, attachment wires, and a light on the case to show that power is on. Pretty good profit at $299. They claim to price match but did not match the $99 units. A friend had one put in his home (I told him when he bought them I didn’t know the science in the box and didn’t know if they would work) last year and let me know this week that they didn’t work for him. I run a swimming pool motor 6-8 hours a day and thought they might help if that is what they are puttings (Cap’s) inside energy star devices.
Lets keep this real simple.
1) Call your Power Company and ask for your average monthly use and $bill.
2) Check the Rate on your per unit cost.
3) Install the PS1200 and check againt the previous 2 items.
Am I the only one here, that is noticing that no one is offering any specifics, just theory or partial info.
I want to see someone post thier actual information.
My 08 average bill was $xxx.xx.
It cost me $xxx.xx to buy ship and have installed the PS1200. After 3 months of use, and a per unit price increase my average cost per month is now xxx.xx
I mean if your utility rate increased and this thing only saves you 1% then didn’t it actually save you 1% plus offset the utility bill. I am no expert in anything, but if it reduces not only your bill a little bit, and lowers the damage done by Spikes, Brown outs and Lightning isn’t that still a positive thing. So far this has only made me want to buy one to test it now. LOL
I agree with Kevin. All of this info has only made me want to buy one. If it works I’ll come back and let you know. The Power-Save company is offering free shipping, so the cost is going to be $300. I have called an electrician and they will install it for $100 – $120 was the quote. My average bill is $100 per month. I have replaced all of my light bulbs, and I have even started to use power surge protectors to cut out vampire power loss. I plan on coming back in a couple of months to let you know if it has made any difference.
I have purchased one, however, it is VERY difficult for me to tell if indeed this is saving me money. On the average my bills are tending to go down, however, I also have a PV system that does not generate the same amount of electricity from day to day, let alone month to month. In order to really see what is going on I am going to start doing a net metering on the house. This will tell me how much energy I am using at any given time. If you have read the information on the PS device it states that you install it on a dedicated breaker. My goal is to basically turn every electric motor based device in my home and measer the usage (the device I am purchasing will measure usage to the watt.) I will run that for ten minutes and calculate the average usage. I will then turn off (flip the breaker) on the PS device and measure the average usage for another ten minute period. If this device saves energy then the second ten minute period will use less energy than the first. Hopefully this will end the debate. Any other suggestions for this test?
Marty
Sorry, typo above. The second test will use MORE energy than the first.
It would not be an accurate test by simply comparing one months bill against another. A simple way to test this device is:
1. Make sure you have inductive loads on in the house (refrigerator, AC, flourescent lights, etc). Or if you wish, turn everything on, just make sure nothing turns off during the tests (thermostat, timer, another person unaware of tests, etc). Or, if the device is plugged in next to the refrigerator, turn everything off (at the breaker panel) except the refrigerator. This will give a true test for the one circuit this device (or any other similar device) claims to help.
2. Time your meter without the saving device on.
3. Time your meter with the saving device on.
Results: Did the meter turn faster or slower with the device on?
I did this test for a friend, and the results show virtually no change in the speed of the meter. What I did, I used a stopwatch and timed ten disc revolutions, both with the device on, and with the device off. Each time we saw virtually no change. Actually, when the device was on, the meter disc turned slightly faster. Please, don’t just take my word for it! Test and see for yourself.
My friend thought that his new device was what saved him $40 dollars on his electic bill. He was comparing February’s bill to March’s bill! He saved because he used less, not because of this new device!!!
how do you plug it in right next to your fridge. just a ? plus how do you know his kWh’s were not less because of the 1200. just another ?
In order to plug in this device (or any other device that is designed for 240 volt home installation) near a refrigerator, you would have to do a temporary setup with a plug using the neutral wire and one “hot” wire, with the other “hot” wire capped. I have not done this with this particular unit, but I have seen other brands out there on the internet that are designed with a plug that can be plugged in anywhere in the house (120 volt receptacle).
To answer your question about “how do you know his kWh’s were not less…”, I know the kilowatts were not less because I was timing the most important meter in question, the electric utilities’ meter, and it did not slow down. I realize that many electric utilities today have electronic meters that does not have the revolving discs. If your meter has a revolving disc, and you wish to do a simple test yourself, you can estimate the load. Here is the formula:
Load (in watts) = (Kh X disk revolutions X 3600 seconds) / time in seconds
Where:
Kh = disk constant, or Watthour constant. (This is the number of watthours represented by one revolution of the disk). The older the meter, the more diverse this number could be. A very popular number is 7.2. (My home meter has 7.2Kh on the front).
Example: If a meter with a Kh of 7.2 makes 12 revolutions in 70 seconds, then…
Load = (7.2 X 12 X 3600) / 70
Load = 311,040 / 70
Load = 4443.4 watts
Load = 4.443 kilowatts
If this exact load is used for one hour, then after one hour you will have used 4.443 kilowatthours. If your utility charges 10 cents per kilowatthour, then 4.443 X .10 = $0.4443. If they charge 8.5 cents per kWhr, then 4.443 X .085 = $0.377
If you do this test, use a stop watch and an interval of at least one minute for accuracy.
For anyone who thinks, “reducing amps will cause the watts or kilowatts to reduce, and therefore will lower my electric bill”, may he/she first ask if he/she is reducing apparent power or actual power. Any “power saving” device that is using capacitors to improve power factor can reduce the kva amps, and will improve a poor power factor, but does the home electric meter record power factor and charge for poor power factor? Mine does not. It only records watts or kilowatts, and kilowatthours, not kilovoltamperes. (It records actual power used, not apparent power).
Correction: This particular unit probably cannot be connected in a 120 volt receptacle. The unit I tested was already installed at the main. If it has two “hots” and one green wire to be connected to ground, then this unit would be for 240 volt installation only, and could not be “temporarily” installed in a 120 volt receptacle. However, if it will do what certain web sites claim it will do, (that is, save on any and all inductive loads), then you could see the affect it has on any one appliance by turning everything else off except the “saving device” at the panel, and then do the tests I mentioned before. If this device is going to save 10% or more on your electric bill, then you must find some situation where you can cause the meter to slow down by 10% or more. Here is one, do a before and after check on your air conditioner while nothing else is on. (The AC is most likely the largest inductive load in the home). Did your meter slow down by 10% or more? With my AC on, my meter turns 10 times in 67 seconds. If you add the so-called power saving device to my AC, it should SLOW my meter causing it to turn 10 times in 68 + 6.8 = 74.8 seconds! I’m not buying it!
Correction again:
I should have said, “it should SLOW my meter causing it to turn 10 times in 67 + 6.7 = 73.7 seconds!” Sorry for the blunder.
I have a power save 1200 and i have had the unit for two months and have seen about a 10% decrease in my last two bills. I have not done a test all i care is that I’m saving money. The first month i did not use AC and the second i did. So i know it is not because i used less power. No worries on my end.
I put the power saver 1200 in a month ago. I have never gotten my kwh usage below 1530 in any month. Last month they were only 1,394 for a total of $125.56 power bill down from 176.23 the previous month and 158.52 in June of 2008. I can’t wait till we have to start using the air conditioner and see what that saves us. I am going to become a reseller if anyone wants one.
I have installed 10 of these now basically as a test for a few months. what i have saw though was a drop in amps the instant the unit is turned on. power factor or not less amps lower bill. do i think they will work great and see 25% for every house NO! do i think they will work for some houses YES! also they claim up to 25% savings actually say normal savings around more like 10%. ALSO one thing to note that you will use less energy which good for the enviroment. sorry about my bad grammer and all that smart person stuff.
This is almost totally false: “power factor or not, less amps lowers bill.” As Dick who is an electric meter engineer explained, in residential accounts your are billed for only real power used, ie KWH, not KVA.
Take this example. I hook up an ideal pure inductive load, like a perfect electromagnet. It has a power factor of 0. Connect up your amp meter and you will measure a lot of amps flowing, but the power is purely reactive. In a residential account, it will cost you zero.
I say almost totally false, because what you will save is the tiny amount of power lost in the resistance of the wire between the meter and our electromagnet as the current is moving back and forth. That power the meter will record and bill. However, I can’t imagine that in a typical house there is enough reactive power causing I2R losses in the wiring that could account for the substantial monthly savings claims.
For those of you that have one, does it matter where you wire it in on the 200 amp Service? I only have an open braker position on the bottom of my service?
Well Brainiac, I saved 28% the first month; and I’ve noticed savings over previous years (month to month)
Seems obvious that the PS unit lowers current flow displayed on an amp probe and per posting electrical engineers, the home power company meter only bills for real power. So is it possible that some meters are actually billing for reactive power incorrectly ? It seems too many people are seeing a savings for it not to be somehow working.
I have looked on the internet for the ingredients of the Power Saver 1200 but can’t find anything is it a secret? Also if it is a capacitor don’t they only help on motor startup?
Kurt,
I called the company and they said the innerds consist of a fixed bank of large, rugged capacitors. Their capacitors are self-healing. As someone states above, there are more expensive ones (made by another company) that adjust capacitance according to the net inductance of a system. It is common practice for a manufacturer to put a capacitor accross the terminals of an electric motor. (For home appliances that have a motor of any size, those capacitors are required for an Energy Star rating, so are seen as saving energy.) If any one motor’s capacitor perfectly matches the inductance of the motor, there is a very real danger of destructive resonance. Power factor correction units are used centrally, to deal with the net inductance of a system. Looking at the amp rating of them makes that obvious. Industry uses these to improve their power factor, in order to cut down on their electric bill. In addition to motors, ballast-based lighting also has inductance from each ballast (e.g. fluorescent, mercury vapor, sodium lights) that add to the net inductance of a system. When there are enough of them, they pull the power factor down so also need to be compensated for.
Dan Rider
I have installed 1 of these units and they have been in operation for 2 months. The results that I have received so far is, no change in the electric bill. I have performed at least 10 seperate tests and each time the end results were the same, reduced current, improved power factor, but no change in the electric meter speed. It does not matter if the power save unit is on or off, when using a stop watch or quartz watch, I have not been able to measure the slow down in the electric meter. To me this means no change in the electric bill.
Has anyone installed a Power Monitor like the TED 1001 or even Black and Decker has one that gives accurate KW usage moment by moment and also logs usage by day and month. If anyone has one of those units installed with the Power Saver 1200 or the like, there would be no guess work. It would show with out a doubt if the Power savers work. Has anyone done that?
Tony
I put the PS-1200 on my home last month. To test if it worked, I read the meter twice in 48 hrs. to establish daily KWH usage. It came to 122 and 125 KWH per day. I then turnwed the unit off for 24 hrs. and reread the meter. With the unit off I used 137 KWH for the day. I have done this several times in the last 45 days with the same type of results. The 15 KWH per day savings translates into $1.38 per day or $41.40 per month in savings. Not a bad return. I pay .092Cents/KWH in Phoenix. On hotter days, the savings were 18 – 19 KWH saved per day. It was between 105 and 115 during the tests.
I know this is not scientific testing, but is is good enough for gov’t use.
Jim A.
Scottsdale, Az.
About timing 10 revolutions of your meter with the unit off and on, I wonder if that is too small a sampling period. If the unit saves and average of $1.00 per day, it would pay for itself in about 10 months. After that, it would just continue saving about $1.00 a day for years and years. So it seems to me that if it saved $1.00/day, that is enough to make it valid. But if it saves $1.00 over 24 hours, that’s 1/24 of a dollar every hour, and even less during the time it would take for 10 revolutions. I am inclined to think that the difference wouldn’t be enough to spit at.
If your electric load is constant for 24 hours, I would agree that only 10 revolutions would seem at first thought to be too small a sampling period, until I do the math. If I use a monthly bill of $150 and 10 cents per kWhr as an example, consider the following:
A $150.00 monthly bill (not counting tax) at 10 cents per kWhr with a constant load that never changes would mean my electric meter would have a constant load of how much?
$150 divided by 30 days = $5.00 per day
$5.00 divided by 24 hours = $0.208333 per hour
$0.208333 divided by 60 minutes = $0.0034722 per minute
Also, consider:
$150.00 monthly bill divided by 0.10 cents per kWhr = 1,500 kWhrs
1,500 kWhrs divided by 30 days = 50 kWhrs per day
50 kWhrs divided by 24 hours = 2.083333333 kWhrs per hour
How does this translate into how fast the meter dial will spin?
2.083333333 kWhrs per hour means the constant load would be 2.083333333 kilowatts. That is the same as 2,083.333333 watts. If the meter has a Kh rating of 7.2, this means that each revolution of the disk represents 7.2 watts. Do you remember from my earlier comments the formula for meter disk revolutions?
Load (in watts) = (Kh X disk revolutions X 3600 seconds) / time in seconds
Where:
Kh = disk constant, or Watthour constant.
So, how long will it take my meter to turn 10 times if it has a constant load of 2,083.333333 watts?
(7.2 x 10 x 3600) / 2,083.333333 = 124.416 seconds
Now, if I plug in this “energy saving device”, and I save 10%, what will that do to my meter that has a constant load?
$150.00 with 10% savings = $135.00 (Not counting tax)
$135.00 divided by 0.10 cents per kWhr = 1,350 kWhrs per month
1,350 kWhrs divided by 30 days = 45 kWhrs per day
45 KWhrs divided by 24 hours =1.875 kWhr per hour
1.875 kWhr per hour = constant load of 1.875 kW = 1,875 watts
Now, how long will it take my meter to turn 10 times if it has a constant load of 1,875 watts?
(7.2 x 10 x 3600) / 1,875 = 138.24 seconds
This is a difference of nearly 14 seconds! Please realize that it should not be that difficult to find a scenario using mostly inductive loads where your so-called energy saving device is tested in a “before and after” test that lasts for at least 60 seconds, and thereby see overwhelming results with the speed of the meter dial, that is, if it is going to save 5%, 10%, 20%, 30%, or more! Since my AC and other inductive loads do not stay on 100% of the time, and are not 100% of my electric bill, I should see even more dramatic results (than the example above) with the meter dial’s speed when I turn on my AC and all other inductive appliances at the same time and do a “before and after test”! If these devices do for the residential customer what they say they will do, (save anywhere from 5% to 35% or more on my electric bill), I should be able to find one for sale at a store that sells appliances or electrical supplies! There are many other brands for sale on the Internet that make similar claims, but none are for sale at Wal-mart! I think I know why!
I have recently started a business selling eco friendly products and Power-Save products are a part of my business. I was looking for reviews on the product and even thought I am new to the business (less than a month) I see a lot of people quoting incorrect info. The PS 1200 only claims to save 8-10% on energy bills with a potential to save up to 25%. Atleast that what it says on my site. I also see the technical rationale for why it shouldn’t work, but for the majority of those who have actually used it, they say it does work.
I really like the quote of the person who said that technically a bumblebee shoudn’t be able to fly, but we all have actually seen a bumblebee fly. Speaking of the bumblebee, this is a sign of success for Mary Kay Cosmetics, Inc. distributors. Mary Kay has been in distribution for over 45 years and you won’t see that product in stores. There are many nay sayers about that product too but I and many of my friends use it and just like me they love it. Some consider it to be pricey but to me its worth it and it has over 45 years to back it.
I said all that to say that according to a previous post Power-Save has been making a larger variation of the 1200 for approx. 30 years, so why would they risk 30 years to mislead people plus they’re giving an unconditional 60 day money back guarantee (just like Mary Kay). It appears to me that they are just trying to get the product distributed by the normal person (just like Mary Kay).And you will see neither PS or MK in stores. So your statement that its not sold in stores does not credit or discredit PS. PS has just chose a different avenue to market its product just like the successful MK products.
I offer several eco products on my site so I don’t have to concentrate on the PS product, but I did want to see what people were saying. I truly want to reduce as many carbon footprints globally and the dependence on oil and coal, one home at a time. That is why I started this business.
So what I’ve seen so far are some people don’t like it (mostly techy people who have not tried it) and there are more people who have the product and says it works for them. So I’m going with those who have tried it. And I can’t wait to close on my 4 family home to install the PS Energy Saving kit and PS solar system. The info that I have also says that if you get the PS 1200 and later decide to get solar, you can save money on your solar sytem purchase because of the energy efficiency of the PS 1200 (don’t quote on the exact wording. I’m on my Blackberry and don’t have access to the site info).
Unfortunately, I will not be able to tell you here what I’ve saved on my electric because this will be a new home, but I will be able to advertise that I have a clean enery green home and that makes me happy. I’m making my contribution to the eco system.
I will continue to read your posts and interject where I can (not techie at all).
I do appreciate what you have to say about Mary Kay. At one time my wife sold Mary Kay, and I have used Mary Kay sunscreen myself. Mary Kay has many good products. It is true that Mary Kay products cannot be bought in stores. Mary Kay products mostly are skin care and beauty products. Even though I cannot find Mary Kay products in stores such as WalMart, I can find in Walmart conpetitive products made by other companies.
Let me also say a word about “MLM” or multi-level-marketing. There are many good MLM companies pushing their products that cannot be bought in stores. I have nothing against MLM companies. I have at one time or another been a distributer in MLM. But just because a company is a MLM company and does not distribute its products in WalMart, this does not prevent another company from distributing a similar product in stores. When I was a distributer in Amway, I was selling toothpaste, draincleaner, dishwashing detergent, etc, items that had and still has competition in stores.
Are all “power factor correction” equipment sold in multi-level-marketing? No. Companies such as General Electric and Westinghouse sell power factor correction equipment and can be found in industries, large commercial companies, and even in home appliances. Capacitors are sold at all levels by these companies. Why wouldn’t General Electric and Westinghouse sell and market whole house power factor correction devices? They do, but not the same way. They make the capacitors that are found inside the appliances, and are designed to turn on and shut off as needed. This is efficient. Turning on a bank of capacitors to correct the whole house without doing any calculations COULD improve power factor some of the time, but will also make the power factor WORSE at other times. As long as there are not too many of these “whole house” power factor correction devices installed to over correct the power company’s power factor, the power companies will not complain, for they are the real benefactors in the formula. If everyone installed one of these devices, (which will never happen under present circumstances), there would be times when the power company would end up with a leading power factor during times of minimum demand, and would end up being forced to penalize the homeowner for CAUSING the leading power factor.
As of now, the power companies of the USA do not charge residential homes for poor power factor, so the only way the kilowatt-hour meter could see any savings with these devices for the homeowner is with I2R losses. Since the “power savers” are being installed at the main panel, then I2R losses will be reduced over a few inches of very large wire. True savings equal near zero, or 1% to 3% at best.
Power Factor = kW / kVa
Also,
Power Factor = kW current / kVa current
The power company’s electric meter for residential homes reads and records kW current, not kVa current.
So far, the power companies are the real benefactors as far as power factor correction is concerned.
Celeana – Clearly, your heart is in the right place. I admire that you want to help others be smarter energy users. It’s good for all of us!
Please check out this link (from another concerned person who is trying to do the right thing / be greener / reduce CO2)
http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions1.php
Sadly, these energy saving devices are not worth the price. Some things actually do work, such as switching to CFL lights. Installing more insulation. Replacing older inneficient appliances.
Best Wishes
Gent’s
I guess I’m one of the “suckers” who purchased the Power Save 1200. Installed the thing myself (with licenced electrician) looking over my shoulder. It has been installed two plus months and I am very pleased. Average electric bill is now around 100 per month. Same time last year (cooler summer) $140 $146 for July and Aug. Kwh are down as compared to the same time last summer.
Could it be and anomaly? Yes I guess it could, but as far as the current situation indicates – the thing is working. I have no degree in electrical engineering but I do have the power of observation.
I’ll keep this board informed in future months as to the continued use of my power save 1200.
One more thing before I go. I am a Soldier in the US Army and maintain Apache Helicopters. Have done so for 20 plus years. If I had a dime for all the expert advice (engineers)who say that it “can’t be done” or “won’t work” my helicopters would never have left the ground. Use your own thought processes and trust your instincts….has served me well over 20 years and 5 combat deployments.
Russ
Let me first say, “Thank you for serving our country.” My hat is off to all who are serving or have served in the armed forces. Keep up the good work.
I am glad to hear from anyone who is saving money. If you are saving over $40 a month, you are doing really well. This means you should be able to turn your Power Save 1200 off, leave every thing else running, and notice a big difference in the speed of your meter, that is, if you have the mechanical type with a disc. (If you don’t, let me know. There may be another way to time your meter.) I do not know what you are paying per kilowatthour, but the national average is about 12 cents. If you are paying about 12 cents per kwhr, and your previous bill was $140 or more, then your kilowatt usage would be:
$140 divided by $0.12 = 1,167 kwhrs. (This does not take into account the service charge, taxes, etc.)
1,167 kwhrs divided by 30 days = 38.9 kwhrs per day (average)
38.9 kwhrs divided by 24 hours = 1.620 kwhr per hr.
1.620 times 1,000 = 1,620 watts per hour (avg)
To calculate the speed of ten revolutions of your meter, use this formula:
speed in seconds = (kh x 10 revs x 3600)/load (in watts)
If your meter has a kh constant of 7.2, then:
Speed (secs) = (7.2 x 10 x 3600)/1,620
Speed (secs) = 259,200 / 1,620
Speed (secs) = 160
Your meter’s disc will average 10 revolutions every 160 seconds. This speed, of course, will change as your load changes.
Now, if you save $40 dollars a month, again using 12 cents per kwhr, then your meter’s average load will be:
$100 divided 12 cents = 833.333 kwhrs
833.333 kwhrs / 30 days = 27.777 kwhrs per day
27.777 kwhrs / 24 hrs = 1.157 kwhrs per hour
1.157 kwhrs x 1,000 = 1,157 watts constant load (avg)
Now, to calculate the speed. Formula:
Speed (secs) = kh x 10 x 3600 / load in watts
Speed (secs) = 7.2 x 10 x 3600 / 1,157
Speed (secs) = 259,200 / 1,157
Speed (secs) = 224
224 – 160 = 64 seconds slower for 10 revolutions (average). Keep in mind that if you have air conditioner on, plus other large inductive loads, your meter will spin much faster than the above calculations indicate, and will change the ratio. But this should, at least, show that the difference between off and on should be very noticable to arrive at $40 savings.
The above calculations only indicate the average. I’m also doing this calculation using the national average. My cost per kwhr is less at about 8.5 or 9 cents per kwhr.
Also, I know that most of the western US is experiencing hotter temps on avg this year, but most of the eastern US is experiencing cooler temps on avg. The best test is to count your meter’s revs with the exact same load on in one setting to end all doubt.
If I knew your cost per kwhr, and service charge, and even your tax rate, I could calculate everything more accurately.
Again, thanks for your service in the army.
Robert,
Month number 4 and Kwh are still reduced from the month, – year prior. I have consistently saved money four months in a row.
There is a destinct difference in “disc” rotation (slower) with the power save on, vs. power save off.
Let me know what data you need to “belay” your fear and I will send it to you. Also if you want specifics I will also send these to you. While I’m not totally “sold” indications are still positive.
Regards
Russ