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	<title>Comments on: Time The Stock Market!</title>
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	<description>personal finance blog with anecdotes, advice and commentary.</description>
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		<title>By: Rick Morley</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-289588</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Morley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-289588</guid>
		<description>Dana, the yield on 30-year treasuries right now is only 4.14%. And yes, it&#039;s been higher in the past, but only when inflation has been higher. 

You&#039;re right that treasuries have a 0% risk of losing your money. But the yield is low enough to match that risk. And the yield is barely above (or in many people&#039;s opinions, significantly below) the rate of inflation. And yes, inflation does take into account the dropping prices of electronics.

Still, if you live is such fear that you can&#039;t lose a single penny, maybe treasuries are for you. But I would pose there is also another risk -- a risk of not having enough money to retire when you want to. If you only save at 4% returns, your money won&#039;t compound very quickly, and you may not have enough money to retire. You will have to save a much larger amount in order to have enough.

For me, I invest in the stock market for two reasons:
1. I don&#039;t have such an emotional attachment to money that I live in fear of losing even a single penny.
2. The 8% returns afforded by the stock market in the long run will better help me to have enough to retire when I want to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dana, the yield on 30-year treasuries right now is only 4.14%. And yes, it&#8217;s been higher in the past, but only when inflation has been higher. </p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that treasuries have a 0% risk of losing your money. But the yield is low enough to match that risk. And the yield is barely above (or in many people&#8217;s opinions, significantly below) the rate of inflation. And yes, inflation does take into account the dropping prices of electronics.</p>
<p>Still, if you live is such fear that you can&#8217;t lose a single penny, maybe treasuries are for you. But I would pose there is also another risk &#8212; a risk of not having enough money to retire when you want to. If you only save at 4% returns, your money won&#8217;t compound very quickly, and you may not have enough money to retire. You will have to save a much larger amount in order to have enough.</p>
<p>For me, I invest in the stock market for two reasons:<br />
1. I don&#8217;t have such an emotional attachment to money that I live in fear of losing even a single penny.<br />
2. The 8% returns afforded by the stock market in the long run will better help me to have enough to retire when I want to.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-289560</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 15:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-289560</guid>
		<description>In the book Your Money Or Your Life, Vicki Robin and Joe Dominguez advocate for people to invest in thirty-year Treasury bonds.  It&#039;s the safest investment out there;  if we ever get to the point that nobody trusts T-bonds, the country will be in such a mess that nobody&#039;s going to care anyhow.  The returns are decentish right now;  last I heard they were over five percent.  They&#039;ve been almost twice that amount in the past.  And the bonds are totally liquid so if you needed to sell some because you had an emergency, you could without penalty.  Also, these days the Treasury Department is allowing investors to buy them in $100 increments.  That&#039;s a new thing as of (I think) this past March.

The number one argument against doing it is inflation.  Dominguez made his living as a Wall Street investor before he retired--at age thirty.  He was aware of inflation as a hazard but he argued that consciousness increases faster than inflation, meaning that if you use your brain and look around yourself at the possibilities, you can find ways to save money on purchases faster than the prices go up.

One thing the &quot;OMG inflation!&quot; folks always, ALWAYS fail to point out is that the indicators we use to determine if inflation is happening, all assume that we buy things like cars, refrigerators, stereos, and televisions every year and that we buy them brand-new.  Obviously that is not true.  Also, prices don&#039;t always go up.  As we&#039;ve seen with computer technology, they often drop as the means of production becomes more efficient or the product becomes more mainstream.

And another reason Dominguez suggested T-bonds is they&#039;re easy.  You go buy one and that&#039;s it.  At most you have to educate yourself about things like bond yield before going in, but the amount of time you are going to spend doing that will be a lot less than trying to learn to time the market or learn which stock-market-related investments are safer.

I&#039;m not above investing in the stock market, mind you.  But I think when I do it it&#039;ll be with money I can afford to throw away.  I know that as long as you hang onto a share and the corporation isn&#039;t bought and doesn&#039;t go out of business, you&#039;re good to go, but I don&#039;t want to see a crash happen right before I retire and be left with nothing.  Treasury bonds are always in $100 increments and I&#039;ll get that back when the bond matures.  The only thing that will change is the interest rate, and for all I know, that might be greater when it&#039;s time to reinvest.  *shrug*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the book Your Money Or Your Life, Vicki Robin and Joe Dominguez advocate for people to invest in thirty-year Treasury bonds.  It&#8217;s the safest investment out there;  if we ever get to the point that nobody trusts T-bonds, the country will be in such a mess that nobody&#8217;s going to care anyhow.  The returns are decentish right now;  last I heard they were over five percent.  They&#8217;ve been almost twice that amount in the past.  And the bonds are totally liquid so if you needed to sell some because you had an emergency, you could without penalty.  Also, these days the Treasury Department is allowing investors to buy them in $100 increments.  That&#8217;s a new thing as of (I think) this past March.</p>
<p>The number one argument against doing it is inflation.  Dominguez made his living as a Wall Street investor before he retired&#8211;at age thirty.  He was aware of inflation as a hazard but he argued that consciousness increases faster than inflation, meaning that if you use your brain and look around yourself at the possibilities, you can find ways to save money on purchases faster than the prices go up.</p>
<p>One thing the &#8220;OMG inflation!&#8221; folks always, ALWAYS fail to point out is that the indicators we use to determine if inflation is happening, all assume that we buy things like cars, refrigerators, stereos, and televisions every year and that we buy them brand-new.  Obviously that is not true.  Also, prices don&#8217;t always go up.  As we&#8217;ve seen with computer technology, they often drop as the means of production becomes more efficient or the product becomes more mainstream.</p>
<p>And another reason Dominguez suggested T-bonds is they&#8217;re easy.  You go buy one and that&#8217;s it.  At most you have to educate yourself about things like bond yield before going in, but the amount of time you are going to spend doing that will be a lot less than trying to learn to time the market or learn which stock-market-related investments are safer.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not above investing in the stock market, mind you.  But I think when I do it it&#8217;ll be with money I can afford to throw away.  I know that as long as you hang onto a share and the corporation isn&#8217;t bought and doesn&#8217;t go out of business, you&#8217;re good to go, but I don&#8217;t want to see a crash happen right before I retire and be left with nothing.  Treasury bonds are always in $100 increments and I&#8217;ll get that back when the bond matures.  The only thing that will change is the interest rate, and for all I know, that might be greater when it&#8217;s time to reinvest.  *shrug*</p>
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		<title>By: GarvFinancial</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-289376</link>
		<dc:creator>GarvFinancial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 21:49:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-289376</guid>
		<description>Gaurav here...Interesting post...I worked as a financial advisor and experience has shown that timing the market really doesn&#039;t get you ahead but long-term planning with optimizing the Alpha in your portfolio based on your risk tolerance does.

Timing the market only works for the 1% of the elite wealthy population who have access to inside information, extremely readily.  It doesn&#039;t work for you and I and the other 99% of Americans who don&#039;t run in elite circles.

Basically, we end up buying high in an bull market and selling low in a bear market majority of the time when we try to time the market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gaurav here&#8230;Interesting post&#8230;I worked as a financial advisor and experience has shown that timing the market really doesn&#8217;t get you ahead but long-term planning with optimizing the Alpha in your portfolio based on your risk tolerance does.</p>
<p>Timing the market only works for the 1% of the elite wealthy population who have access to inside information, extremely readily.  It doesn&#8217;t work for you and I and the other 99% of Americans who don&#8217;t run in elite circles.</p>
<p>Basically, we end up buying high in an bull market and selling low in a bear market majority of the time when we try to time the market.</p>
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		<title>By: Renoster</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-288851</link>
		<dc:creator>Renoster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 03:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-288851</guid>
		<description>Timing the market is great as long as you have an idea in what direction it is heading. In most instances, however, it is almost impossible to tell. A bear market precedes a recession months in advance. The same is also true about bull markets - the markets recover probably a good six months before the economy does. 
If you miss the best market days your portfolio returns will suffer. On the flip side, if you only miss the worst days you&#039;ll be a very successful investor. Personally, I don&#039;t pretend to know what the markets will do. For me it&#039;s important to have the right investment allocation based on my goals and objectives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timing the market is great as long as you have an idea in what direction it is heading. In most instances, however, it is almost impossible to tell. A bear market precedes a recession months in advance. The same is also true about bull markets &#8211; the markets recover probably a good six months before the economy does.<br />
If you miss the best market days your portfolio returns will suffer. On the flip side, if you only miss the worst days you&#8217;ll be a very successful investor. Personally, I don&#8217;t pretend to know what the markets will do. For me it&#8217;s important to have the right investment allocation based on my goals and objectives.</p>
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		<title>By: Hanstaruna</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-282684</link>
		<dc:creator>Hanstaruna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 08:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-282684</guid>
		<description>in my view, to hear expert opinions is good but don&#039;t follow them blindly. It&#039;s because they have different interest than ours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>in my view, to hear expert opinions is good but don&#8217;t follow them blindly. It&#8217;s because they have different interest than ours.</p>
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		<title>By: MFJ</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-282476</link>
		<dc:creator>MFJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:22:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-282476</guid>
		<description>&gt;Hmmm I have to figure out how to show it’s a Devil’s Advocate post in Google Reader…

I agree I thought you were off your rocker for a second until I came to the page and sa it was a DA post :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Hmmm I have to figure out how to show it’s a Devil’s Advocate post in Google Reader…</p>
<p>I agree I thought you were off your rocker for a second until I came to the page and sa it was a DA post <img src='http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-282474</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-282474</guid>
		<description>Hmmm I have to figure out how to show it&#039;s a Devil&#039;s Advocate post in Google Reader...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm I have to figure out how to show it&#8217;s a Devil&#8217;s Advocate post in Google Reader&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-282470</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:58:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-282470</guid>
		<description>Well, assuming buy low/sell dear, this market timing thing means buying season could be about to open!

BTW, the fact that this is a Devil&#039;s Advocate post doesn&#039;t show up in Google Reader.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, assuming buy low/sell dear, this market timing thing means buying season could be about to open!</p>
<p>BTW, the fact that this is a Devil&#8217;s Advocate post doesn&#8217;t show up in Google Reader.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. ToughMoneyLove</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-282466</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. ToughMoneyLove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-282466</guid>
		<description>Is the WAMU recommendation also Devil&#039;s Advocacy?  There are banks out there that are not teetering on the brink.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is the WAMU recommendation also Devil&#8217;s Advocacy?  There are banks out there that are not teetering on the brink.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-282462</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-282462</guid>
		<description>I totally agree!  I can&#039;t wait to time the market, just as soon as I get my crystal ball back from the shop....

Sure it is easy to say in hindsight that it was stupid to buy S&amp;P 500 shares 3 months ago.  But at the time there were no guarantees that the market wasn&#039;t going to start shooting up.  If you &quot;knew&quot; that the market was going down, then shouldn&#039;t you be advocating shorting SPY or Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac?  And advocating that people buy art or horses is really not a good alternative.  I have to say, one of my least favorite posts so far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree!  I can&#8217;t wait to time the market, just as soon as I get my crystal ball back from the shop&#8230;.</p>
<p>Sure it is easy to say in hindsight that it was stupid to buy S&amp;P 500 shares 3 months ago.  But at the time there were no guarantees that the market wasn&#8217;t going to start shooting up.  If you &#8220;knew&#8221; that the market was going down, then shouldn&#8217;t you be advocating shorting SPY or Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac?  And advocating that people buy art or horses is really not a good alternative.  I have to say, one of my least favorite posts so far.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Morley</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-282458</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Morley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:31:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-282458</guid>
		<description>I know this is a DA post, but I can agree with it, under certain circumstances. In order to time the market, you have to have a lot of knowledge. You have to spend a lot of time researching companies (or even the market in general). You have to have a lot of knowledge about how technical trading works (reading charts, looking for patterns etc.). If you can do all these, you&#039;ll likely be able to outperform the market.

That said, look at Lehman brothers and Merrill Lynch. If even they were not able to successfully time the market, why do we think we can?

Just a point to ponder...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this is a DA post, but I can agree with it, under certain circumstances. In order to time the market, you have to have a lot of knowledge. You have to spend a lot of time researching companies (or even the market in general). You have to have a lot of knowledge about how technical trading works (reading charts, looking for patterns etc.). If you can do all these, you&#8217;ll likely be able to outperform the market.</p>
<p>That said, look at Lehman brothers and Merrill Lynch. If even they were not able to successfully time the market, why do we think we can?</p>
<p>Just a point to ponder&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: tom</title>
		<link>http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/time-the-stock-market.html/comment-page-1#comment-282451</link>
		<dc:creator>tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/?p=2123#comment-282451</guid>
		<description>oh no!  The 5.00% CD offer is DONE!!!  It&#039;s been replaced with a 8-mo, 4.25% CD offer!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh no!  The 5.00% CD offer is DONE!!!  It&#8217;s been replaced with a 8-mo, 4.25% CD offer!</p>
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