United First Financial Money Merge Accounts: Scam or Legit?
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A reader recently sent an email asking about a program United First Financial runs called a Money Merge Account and whether it was legitimate. United First Financial promises that the program, which costs $3500, would have you pay off the mortgage in one-third to one-half the time it normally would take. Knowing nothing about money merge accounts and knowing a little bit more about simple math, I smelled a fat $3500 scam brewing. The only scenario in which I could see $3500 cutting your mortgage in half is if you had a $7000 mortgage. But, setting my mental scam alerts aside, I did some more research about the plan.
Apparently it’s a fancy name for an accelerated mortgage repayment scheme. The first step in the money merge account is to take out a second mortgage on your home, a home equity line of credit. Then, what you do pay your entire paycheck towards the first mortgage and withdraw money from the HELOC to cover your expenses. You save a little money because the interest on a HELOC is calculated based on average daily balance rather than the final monthly balance. This lets you pay off more of the mortgage at the beginning of the month and then be charged less interest on the HELOC. (this assumes the same interest rate, which is a big flaw)
However, the plan also has a lot of other assumptions and flaws.
- It assumes that your HELOC interest rate will be the same as your first mortgage interest rate – very unlikely. The bigger the HELOC rate, the less you save on that difference.
- It assumes a single monthly paycheck so it’s a plan that loses some of its power if you are paid irregularly or every two weeks.
- One big flaw is that there is never discussion of HELOC fees. I’ve never opened a HELOC but I imagine it’s not free.
- This plan requires that you don’t save at all for anything else. Since your entire paycheck goes towards the mortgage and you withdraw expenses, it penalizes you drawing on the HELOC for non-essentials. Why pay $100 towards a 6-7% mortgage and then borrow $100 from a 10% HELOC?
- Finally, as if all those weren’t enough, you have to pay $3,500 for a program to help you do this!?
In researching this article I researched a lot of sites and they were nearly unanimous in their opinion that these types of programs are not worth the money (not surprisingly). They’re not scams in the sense that you pay your $3500 and they disappear into the night but it’s something you can do yourself.
This begs the question, should you use it to force discipline? I could justify paying $100 to enforce discipline because it can save you quite a bit in the long run, if you can overcome the failings, but $3500 is ridiculous. If you have $3500 and you want to pay off your mortgage sooner, send a $3500 check to your mortgage company. (if you want a legitimate and easy way to pay off a mortgage faster, consider making mortgage payments every two weeks)
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Tags: HELOC, Mortgages, Scams
Jun 10, 2008 | Read more in The Home
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YOu have the actual software? I thought you would never buy something like this? Tell me the exact numberes and factors you are using in your scenario like income, expenses are $4,800 I guess you put in. You must not be putting in the correct numbers for the scenario I am talking about. Just let me know so I can check this with my system because it is definately not a 20 yrs payoff time. THanks Joe
I have access to the demo site for agents, am looking at income folder, showing John and Rebecca, earning $1300/1200 semi monthly. Tot $5000/mo.
Expenses are $60.90 for cell, $1000 variable exp, $2500 living exp. Tot $3560.90
Then is “Account expenses” which show tot $1239.10 which I trust is the $1199.10 for the mortgage, and I left the $40/mo it showed to pay off the $3500 MMA.
So it just occurs to me, that in my scenario, I allowed $240 to be used as that’s all that’s available, which accounts for year MMA beat my assumption. I’ll go back in later and advise.
Yes, TRTiL, we know when agents are lying. Even if Joe didn’t have access to the MMA software, most agents are begging to run MMA reports. Given the same information, they never seem to come up with the same answer out of the MMA. The most common error is when agents input monthly income as bi-weekly, resulting in 2 extra (phantom) paychecks per year that the MMA funnels directly to the debts, but there are other errors.
Also, when agents compare the MMA to a simple prepayment strategy using an online calculator like the one at bankrate dot com, I’ve seen them screw that up as well. Google “Conversation with a UFirst Agent” to read along with that case.
Ok, got back in. I took off the automatic $40 used to pay the HELOC, and raised cell phone to $100.90 so now expenses folder totaled $3600.90 and Account Expenses show just the mortgage $1199.10.
Now, the payoff is 21.33, vs my 20.91, 5 months different. Those 5 months of $1199 payments show that MMA by UFFs own software shows a $6000 cost to the system, $3500 plus accrued interest. One way or another you are letting the system believe there’s $310/mo. Not a small sum.
Hey Joe,
It’s unfortunate that MMA agents have absolutely no way of verifying their numbers. They look at you with big puppy eyes and tell you they entered everything correctly and these are the results, no matter how mathematically ridiculous they are.
I’m willing to give TIL some benefit of the doubt, but I don’t want to hear about MMA printouts and how much interest was saved. I want to see how the actual bank numbers look.
HI Joe,
OK, thanks for giving me the figures you are using and I will check this out and see what you did and get back to you when I can today to see my results. In regards to your last post Craig, you must have really been taken advantage of by a not very good agent who pressured you and lied to you and I am sorry you went through that, but all people don’t lie and they dont’ put the bi-weekly extra paychecks in either when the client does not want to use those so I think you should stop generalizing as a whole about agents and realize that was true with that agent or other agents I guess who have done your analysis. I think you guys are really missing the real point here and that is this system is NOT just a mortgage paydown and debt paydown system. It is so much more with financial forecasting, budget planning and total overall money management so that every dollar that comes into ones life is used to its utmost potential of canceling interest and earning interest for you. There is a wealth building piece to this coming out in the next version of development that will help you reach your target amount for retirement and your financial goals to build wealth at same time of getting out of debt. There is nothing like this in the world. Go get the May/June edition of Personal Real Estate Investor Magazine and they say we have no competition and the companies that claim they can do what this does……..are no match. Personal Real Estate Investor Mag does not do story after story and give the Editor’s choice award to just any company off the street. They did their due dilligence for years now and people like Donald Trump and other industry experts get this magazine as a subcription every month and these magazines can’t put in false information or companies that are scams in their magazine and do cover stories on them and promote them and be an advocate for them if they are not the “Real Deal” and do what they say they can do. YOu all should look at all the credibility out there in the marketplace and all the awards and all the critics and experts that support this product and say there is nothing like it in the world. Why would all these people who have nothing to gain like Mark Victor Hansen, Author of Chicken Soup for the soul and world renound auther say they are on the program and saving $500k or paying their homes off in 10.4 yrs if it were not true? They wouldn’t risk their reputation and they would not advocate something that they did not see working for themselves in their own lives. Experts are not dumb and they are not people like you just talking about what they think they know and talking about it all on the internet. I just consider all your comments like reading something on the bathroom wall and I never make my decisions from those people’s opinions. I listen to the experts and I do my own research and trust me, I have done that and my clients have done that.
Great, another wall-of-text response.
In my case, a lying agent almost took advantage of my friend and his wife who were in no position to accelerate their mortgage, and could ill-afford a $3500 hit. He asked for my impressions, and instead of a sale, UFirst earned an enemy for life. I haven’t historically gone around debunking scams for a hobby. I’m a skier and mountain biker and, when I get around to it, a father when I’m not at work. I don’t even have a mortgage. I paid that off by setting up automatic accelerated payments with my bank. It was insanely easy, and I finished months ahead of where I would have been with the MMA.
And if you’re so proud of this system, what’s your agent number? I guarantee this is my real name. I’m not one for nicknames, though I can see why people use them. I’ve used “BartBandy” – a favourite fictional character from novels, in some forums. In fact, I’d be very interested to see you post this 14.7 year MMA report Joe is dissecting, with your name attached. That way, your incorrect or simply inefficient MMA report will be forever tied to your name and agent number.
Great greg the US Government just spent 1 trillion + of mine and your money and im in no position to have my taxes increased guess us govt is a scam in your eyes as well. Instead of attacking why don’t you post your bank statements to prove your being truthful.Id be interested in seeing that. also if you have no exprtise in banking or financial matters how can i ensure your statements are based on sound financial principes?, and most people arent as fortunate as you to be mortgage free most americans have been so taken advantage of by the banking industry that they have nothing to show for their years of faithful payment to banks, how can turning the table on bank be a scam. What about the homeowner who pays double the value of their home in the form of mortgage paymenets,doesnt that prove that a mortgage or the bank is a scam,I have owned many homes in my life and never has a banker said to me, Tom set up an additional paymenet plan to get rid of this drain of a mortgage, instead they said we’ll call you if rates drop in a year or to so we can refinance you at2-3 thousand dollars every time and save you $100 month but extend amount of time you have to pay by another 15-30 years.Sounds like a being taken advantage of and a scam to me. We can make a case that any business any product is a scam if we look for the negatives and MMA is no different.
Tom,
Unfortunately, the same people that claim MMA works because of “factorial math” usually claim that mortgages are scams because they are “front-loaded” and take a very long time to drop the loan amount by half.
There used to be ads for a mystery book called “The Banker’s Secret”. This book turned out to be nothing more than a pamphlet showing how prepayment reduces your mortgage faster and reduces your total interest paid. Well DUH! Anyone who has a real financial background knows how mortgages are calculated and why they take so long to pay off and why so much interest is paid. There is no scam here, just math and finance. Bankers aren’t taking advantage of anyone. We can be just like the Japanese, living with our parents, saving enough to make a 30-50% down payment on our first home. Then we wouldn’t have to pay so much interest, would we? And we could get a shorter mortgage, so we could pay it off faster!
And yes, I have refinanced my mortgages for a full 30 years, so I could take advantage of smaller payments, so I could invest the difference. It seems most people would rather spend the difference, which is why they have little to show “for their years of faithful payment to banks.”
MMA is nothing more than a computerized babysitter, telling people to take their spare cash and pay down their mortgage. This is something they can do on their own. But they don’t because they are financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate and intellectually lazy. And please don’t tell me us mere humans could never calculate the exact amount to send at the exact time. The $3500 MMA charges overwhelms any additional savings it supposedly provides over us mere humans.
When I read this
I thought you meant Mixed Martial Arts.
Just sayin’
I tried getting a partial refund from First
United, due to the fact that I couldn’t access
the program, they have my money and all I get
is attitude that I did something wrong by waiting to long to cancel the contract.
Their support staff can’t help you with your access problem?
And why look for a partial refund?
If you’ve exhausted your options with the company, log everything, including your meetings with your agent, his/her promises and claims, your dealings with UFirst support, and register a complaint with the Utah BBB against the parent company:
http://utah.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=139&bbb=1166&firm=22021100
UFirst are down to a “C” rating. This is about the only BBB entry they seem to care about. Put everything in front of the BBB and see what they say.
HI JOe,
I am trying to find time to look at the numbers you used and what you did to figure this all out and put it in my system but yesterday and today have been really long days. I will hopefully find time to look at this by tomorrow or Sat so hang on. ON the person that can’t get a refund back…..Ufirst will work with you if it is a legitimate reason you are returning it like, it has not worked for you. If you are having issues with getting into your system than they can fix that at IT or client support. THere are thousands of clients on this program if not hundreds of thousands by now and the BBB only has like 6 or 8 complaints and every one of them has been satisfied and resolved unless it is something on the end of the consumer where they did wrong. Go look at your bank or your car company and see how many complaints they have. Large companies with good products or services that service this many people in the nation are always going to have issues with people not being happy or satisfied. That is just how this world is and part of business. You can’t please everyone.
I have one unpublished post, should appear soon.
I got back in the software, ran the same scenario with no $3500 fee at all. This would let MMA tell me exactly how much it saves by using the HELOC shuffle, since my spreadsheet is prepay only.
Again, my sheet shows 251 months, with $698 final payment.
MMA shows payoff in 20.75 or 249 months. Call it 2.5 months. Only if you ignore the $3500. If you use the MMA “true cost” you are left with a balance after 249 months of $11726 (using 6% as the rate, same as mortgage). MMA does help capture the $3000 (2.5 * $1200 mort) but at a cost of nearly $12K.
TRTiL:
“Ufirst will work with you if it is a legitimate reason you are returning it like, it has not worked for you.”
That is not a valid reason in the eyes of UFirst. Call them and ask. You have (iirc) 3 days to request a refund. After that, they’ll fight you tooth and nail.
“the BBB only has like 6 or 8 complaints and every one of them has been satisfied and resolved unless it is something on the end of the consumer where they did wrong.”
Wrong. Follow my link above. They are up to 21 complaints, but if you hunt through the BBB, and it’s been a while since I’ve done this, some complaints are registered against the selling agents. People don’t realize that UFirst doesn’t give a damn about those complaints, because agents are simply disposable and a liability shield to them.
I understand what you are saying Craig, but even 21 complaints out of thousands and thousands of people across the US is actually a very low number and pretty normal as I said for any product oriented and service oriented company. YOu are pretty harsh on the agents and some deserve it I know that so I understand your feelings, but the company is a good company and a ton of agents are out for the client’s best interest and doing their best to serve them as we are as well so dont’ label all of them. Just like we can’t say all cops are good or bad or all companies don’t care about their employees, etc. YOu can’t knock them as a whole. I understand your frustation and I think you really got treated poorly and taken advantage of by the person that showed you the system, but there are good people out there helping people and making a differnece in their lives and if there were not then you would see thousands and thousands of complaints on the BBB……..but you don’t and you won’t.
Once again, I have not been treated badly by UFirst, because I haven’t for a moment considered buying the MMA or giving UFirst a dime. I have been threatened by an agent, but that was just funny. He was going to call his “brother in the FBI” on me.
I have reported rogue agents to UFirst for breaking the agent agreement and making ridiculous claims. In one case, agent Jim Moore (#853358) thought I had the master list of agents, and asked me to forward it to him so he could market LocalAdLinks to every other UFirst agent. I do have that list, but with no contact information. I forwarded Jim’s emails to UFirst, but Jim is still an agent.
The agent I met in person agreed that the MMA was inefficient and ridiculously expensive, but he is a career salesman, and he has a hand in UFirst and SendOutCards, probably among other MLMs.
Other UFirst agents are also involved in cash gifting scams, and if you don’t know what “cash gifting” means, google it and prepare to be amazed at how monumentally stupid these people are.
As for the relative lack of complaints, UFirst is somewhere around 70,000 agents and 120,000 sales. A huge portion of their clients are also agents, so that immediately removes about half the clients from lodging complaints against their own parent company. With the remainder, they probably think they’re involved in some mortgage utopia. Basic math proves otherwise. The MMA is a smokescreen – all they are doing is simple prepayment, in a very convoluted way.
Anonymous,
Sorry to hear about your problems. Craig is right, you should definitely file a complaint with the UT BBB chapter. You could also file a consumer complaint with the FTC also (https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov) if you believe their business practices were deceptive or misleading. Many agents throw around the “100% guarantee”, leading buyers to mistakenly think they can get their money back whenever something goes wrong. UFF will only refund “100%” if you cancel within the first three days. After that, good luck. HELOC’s frozen, employment/layoffs, credit cards canceled, major emergency payments…none of these are grounds in UFF’s legal eyes for a refund, even though every one of them would adversely affect the “payoff date” compared to your initial analysis.
Craig,
I heard from the leaders that only 30% of the Agents are on the MMA, hence their push to get more agents using it (you can’t effectively sell what you don’t use!)
Also, the “liability shield” is about to weaken somewhat. UFirst is starting an “Inside Sales” force to start selling the MMA. I don’t know if they’ve started yet, but overall, 2009 sales are down. One top agent who made well into 6 figures last year is on pace to only make 50% this year (nearly all from downline, of course).
When I plugged Joe’s setup into the software, I got a final payoff in 21.25 years, with only $200 discr. income. (I set all payments due on the 25th of each month and all paychecks to be the 1st and 15th of each month. That is likely the source of the slight difference in payoff years/interest). This was using an “Aggressive Scale” value of 1. Cranking it all the way to “6″ gets a final payoff in 20.92 years. That’s a lot of shuffle for no real value from a simple prepayment method.
PS, when I entered a hypothetical MMA purchase of $3,500, and selected the “Best Time to Buy”, it gave me a date over a month ago!
L2G, so what were they up to now? 130,000 or so agents and clients combined? So if 70% of agents are not clients, that means in rough numbers, UFirst’s total sales to date would be about [130,000 - (0.7 * 70,000)] = ~81,000 MMAs sold.
Gross MMA income for UFirst would therefore be $81 million. They make $175 for every agent signup, so they got an additional $12 million from agents. Together with other income from agents paying for merchandise and UTracker Pro versions, UFirst has probably broken the $100 million mark in gross income if you combine all four years of their existence.
Of course, their office, salaries, marketing, and paying magazines to write fluff pieces about them can’t come cheap. Those costs are mostly fixed. If 2008 was their best year, and they are down ~50% in 2009…no wonder they’re laying off staff. They’re probably already back in the red.
Interesting information. Thanks for sharing.
Oh yeah, don’t forget the millions they spent on GE Aerospace mathematical engineers from NASA to develop the MMA. Factorial math ain’t cheap, ya know.
lol
Craig,
From my best estimates, no more than 120,000 combined agents and clients. But here’s the kicker. Right now, an agent gets a Demo account. If they are also users/clients of the account, they get a different account. So the 120K is double counting.
As of right now, there are no more than 68K agents (total, including many inactives). That leaves ~52K “clients”. If we assume 30% of ALL agents are also users (conservative), then ~20K of those clients are also agents. Which leaves ~32K sold to mostly friends, family, etc. That’s not even 1 sale per agent.
Just fyi, Ufirst is a “DEBT FREE” company and just moved into a 30,000 sq ft building free and clear so they are not in the red. Sales are down all over the US in most every company and product and you should know that is no surprise that they are down 50% in sales, if that is true, I don’t know the numbers but I guess someone who is speaking here seems to think he knows a lot about the company. I dont’ believe anyone writing on the internet, anyone can write anything they feel like but that does not mean its the truth and documented. Its just a bunch of opinions. Secondly, if they were not doing the right thing for people and clients were upset and not getting what they paid for and that huge benefit of savings then yes, there would be thousands of complaints to the FTC and BBB so obviously there are not or they would have been shut down already. I admit their agents are not all the best and the most knowledgable or truthful, but there are always dishonest salespeople in any organization that large. For the most part, their agents are really good people and want to help people sincerely and of course people who work hard want to get paid for their work and should so yes they get good commissions and paid pretty well. That is the business model Ufirst set up and its the same one as Keller Williams, #1 real estate company in the nation has, and same as the insurance industry. They can’t pay people off or Ernst & Young or all the leading industry expert magazines, sorry , but that does not make any sense at all guys and if you believe that then I don’t really think you understand what you are talking about or have been in the financial industry ever. I am sorry you both had bad experiences, but I really dont think it is wise or fair to bring down a whole company for some of what its agents did. I know for a fact people get their money back after 3 days or longer because something happened to our clients income and some issues with their lives changed and they got their money back. I would really stop talking if you dont know what you are talking about. I will also find the time soon to put Joe’s numbers into our system and run them and see what I come up with but I have been so busy with large developer meetings and people that really see this and understand it as a solution and huge benefit and savings to stabilize this market.A few of you are going to really eat your words in the next few years when this is a household name. If everyone can do it themselves and pay off their homes and cancel the interest this product is dancelling……then why is America in such a mess financially and in so so much DEBT and only 5% of Americans even own their own home? Think about that. That is the latest statistic out in the news on homeownership and I can’t even tell you how much we all owe in DEBT to credit cards, cars, loans, student loans, and other debt in America. Have a nice life with your debt.
RTL – I await your response. You will realize that MMA and the HELOC shuffle do not produce enough savings to even pay for the $3500 fee. This is a fact. You will only be left with the idea that it provides some motivation factor beyond what one can do on their own, or is willing to do with free spreadsheets.
Forget about all the references, they are just a distraction. The fact that most agents can’t tell the difference between an accurate result and an entry error should set off a red flag. The difference between 21 years vs 15 should be obvious, especially when run on the classic example. You can debate whether it’s just a few, or many, but, I don’t mean to be unkind here, you, yourself are unable to find such an error.
As I’ve stated, the simplest error is for an agent to take a semimonthly income and enter it as bi-weekly, this is an error of 8% which will cut a mortgage by about 5 years depending on other factors. I have found agent after agent who do not detect this error, but the analysis sheet makes it obvious.
And for the last time, I beg you. Paragraphs. I’ve had civil dialogs with agents who want to become more credible and if nothing else understand their own product better. My first piece of advice is to improve their writing skills, second avoid tangents that seek credibility.
TRTiL,
For how “busy” you’ve been to not have time to rerun Joe’s numbers, you sure have had plenty of time for long posts. I was able to closely replicate his findings in no more than 10 minutes. Surely you’ve got that much time.
You’ve also covered a lot of other items that have been talked about over and over in this thread. Have you read any of the previous comments, specifically how “Ernst and Young” just sponsors the award and does not vet or chose the winning entreprenuers? I won’t go into all the magazines, but I have covered them here before. Click on the “Older Comments” at the bottom of the page to read any if you “find the time”.
We can wait for you to run Joe’s scenario.
PS
Madoff is a household name.
Late2Game,
Are you still using your Florida mortgage company link as an example of how bad MMA is? After I pointed out that the information you were presenting in opposition to MMA was based on untruths and fear tactics you disappeared.
As you know I don’t mind disagreement about MMA but it would be nice if just one anti-MMAer would acknowledge it when they present false information instead of running to another blog. Frankly, it’s hard for me to give you much credibility on other things you state when you do this.
If you make a mistake or if you’re wrong stand up and acknowledge it instead going into hiding only to emerge somewhere else.
I read some of these other blogs from time to time but I had decided to post only on the one you abandoned after you presented that false information. When I saw you on here I just had to again compel you come clean.
The Real Truth in Lending,
I used MMA for four years. It worked. I paid down my mortgage at the rate it said it would. It was a great psychological boost to me to have a system that helped me accomplish this.
But I quit using it a little over a month ago, when I realized I could accomplish the same, if not a little better results without the system. It did get me on track to understanding what I could do on my own.
Using MMA will not save you one penny in real money. The one and only advantage it has is psychological and teaching some financial discipline. It is a system that works that costs 3500. You can get a similar system for a lot less money or just pay more money toward your mortgage without a HELOC, as I am now doing. You will get the same or better results.
Again, there is absolutely no mathematical value to the HELOC recycling system as used by MMA. If you promote MMA to others on the basis that it will save them money or that somehow they are using the bank’s money instead of their own you will not be telling the truth. All of the savings is the result of their own (discretionary) money.
Matt,
Good to see you found your way over here! I apologize to others who may not have followed a different thread. And I apologize for the long post.
To address your comments, Where did I say that previous link was, as you say, an “example of how bad the MMA is?” The discussion I was trying to have with you was on risk. No where in my words do I say “this link proves MMA is bad”. I realize the author of that link has strong feelings towards the MMA, (as do I), and as you pointed out, he makes some generalizations and even misstatements when referring to home owner’s insurance policies. I think that his example cases are over the top.
My point for linking to his site was more to reference the point (and I should have clarified this fact) that the emphasis was on “risk” in equity. The truth is, risk exists in everything, even in equity, and even if he didn’t state it correctly. Is it on the same level as owning a single company’s stock for your retirement? Of course not. Is it negligible? Well, if one is sending every bit of their discretionary income towards principal payments, through other debt instruments, I think it isn’t. How liquid is equity? Sometimes not enough. But to each their own.
You and Craig both desired to pay off equity debt in an accelerated manner. And I think that is a fine choice to make, when one takes into account the larger picture, including, among other things, their personal risk tolerance. (Kudos for shifting your retirement account holdings to conservative ones at the right moment, by the way. Maybe you can give us all a heads up on the next bubble peak.) In some cases though, it MAY not be the best place for one’s next discretionary dollar. And many agents, especially the financially innumerate ones, only present one message.
Speaking of agents, I am interested in the person who “introduced [you] to the MMA” (Post #2304 in thesimpledollar.com thread). If your timing that you stated in post #1660 is correct, you said “I started on the program April 10, 2005.” I still am confused by that date because:
1. In post #1664, you say regarding equity acceleration programs, “MMA being just one and happens to be the one I first discovered.” You refer to the Money Merge Account, of course.
2. United First Financial Distributing, LLC was founded, according to the Utah Business Entity Search, on January 18, 2006. (http://www.utah.gov/serv/bes and search “united first financial”). So you wouldn’t have discovered it through UFF, since they didn’t officially exist (United First Financial, LLC was registered in 2007).
3. The prior company to UFF was Accelerated Equity & Development, Inc. (AED). They offered what eventually became the “Money Merge Account”, but it was called the “Principal First Account”. The same words that, in post #1660 you state, “I have never heard the precise term Principal First Account…”
4. The Principal First Account (PFA) was being offered by AED for a good while, even in to 2006. In this thread,
http://www.money-talk.org/thread5390.html
a user inquires about the PFA, in Oct 2005. In this thread, a certain Ryan Sabin (UFF) also refers to the PFA, in May of 2005,
http://friendsinbusiness.com/board1/archive2/index.cgi?read=95092
5. It wasn’t until trying to trademark Principal First Account that the owners found out they couldn’t, so they chose “Money Merge Account”. The US Patent Office shows the trademark application for “Money Merge Account” was filed on Jan 4, 2006. The First Use and First Use in Commerce of the term “Money Merge Account” are both listed being June 28, 2006, (http://tess2.uspto.gov no direct linking, search by terms). This is also shown by the Internet Archive Wayback Machine. The term Principal First Account was used on their website up to at least Jan 29, 2006
(http://web.archive.org/web/20060129043609/www.acequity.com/)
So, how is it that you have been on the “MMA” since April 10, 2005, but neither terms “United First Financial” nor the “Money Merge Account” as named, were in the public? Who was the person who introduced you to the MMA?
Just curious.
PS, if every agent would add some version of the two paragraphs you wrote, starting with “Using MMA will not save …” to what ever presentations they do, I would not bother wasting any more time posting on the internet at all. Thanks for your honesty.
Late2Game,
Regarding your post, one other person noted that it was “completely goofy, and I made a post to that effect.” (#1676) You were never heard from again.
As far as all the stuff about when UFF started you will notice that I have rarely used the term UFF but rather MMA which I thought for a long time was simply a generic term and I did not start the program under UFF, as your careful research has confirmed. However, MMA is in fact the term that was used when it was presented to me by someone in April, 2005.
I don’t really know what your point is in all of this. I was just wondering why you would direct people to a post with such obviously flawed information to make your point and then not stay around to either defend or correct your comments. I’m pleased that here you admit that his examples are at least “over the top.” At the time you said it was “a good write up of the risks involved in paying all discretionary income to a mortgage.”
You can take the opinion that paying discretionary income to a mortgage is a risk if you wish, but that write up is a terrible argument for not doing so.
Matt,
I only had a short chance to read some of your following posts on that thread, with all of the tangents calvin and you took. I guess it has slowed down to a few posts a day now, but I don’t know where you both have the time to post as much as you do.
Regarding your use of a different program, that makes sense now. Since you used the term “MMA”, short for Money Merge Account, which is trademarked by United First Financial, that led everyone to believe you were on that exact program. Why did you let statements like (#1636), “You paid $3500 once to UFirst…” slide by? From what I have read, you seem to be the type to correct any and all details made about you. You may have mentioned it in a later post (did you?), but I stopped reading the flood of responsese as they came in my email. Doesn’t seem like your MO.
By the way, if you don’t mind, what other program were you on? I know the Home Equity Accelerator (later called Home Ownership Accelerator) was available in your timeframe.
The fact remains that “risk” exists in all financial aspects we undertake (or fail to undertake). Opportunity cost, interest rate, liquidity, credit (for HELOCs) and market risks are all present to some degree or another when considering using the Money Merge Account.
For the person, in yet another thread, who had very little discretionary income to begin with, was put on the Money Merge Account, had their HELOC almost immediately frozen, whose job is being threatened in the down economy, and readily admited they “[aren't] the best in finance”, the risks I stated above are large and looming.
For someone like you, who has (from what I can gather) a well rounded portfolio (retirement, savings, etc.), actual discretionary income, financial discipline, and is towards the end of their pricipal payments, well these risks are substantially less.
Wouldn’t you agree?
Late2Game,
“The fact remains that “risk” exists in all financial aspects we undertake (or fail to undertake). Opportunity cost, interest rate, liquidity, credit (for HELOCs) and market risks are all present to some degree or another when considering using the Money Merge Account.”
Who said there is no risk in various financial aspects we understate? My concern is using such a blatantly untruthful argument to illustrate your point that there is risk in paying discretionary money to pay off one’s mortgage.
Now, if you would respond to this instead of changing the subject I would appreciate it.
But so you will know, I was never asked to be an agent with MMA. It was presented to as I described on the other blog (on a trip I made) and I bought the system and decided to start using it. I can tell you, because I just looked at it, that the words money merge is on the software I used. Sorry to disappoint you in your diligent research on this. I still don’t know what you’re trying to prove and why you won’t respond to your description of something being “a good write up” when in fact it is completely off-the-mark write up.
Oh well, I suppose you’ll just come back with more quasi “research” rather than constructive dialogue.
Matt,
Why the harsh tone? Now you are playing the calvin, and I am the Matt.
“Now, if you would respond to this instead of changing the subject I would appreciate it.”
I’m not changing the subject. I am addressing the facts that I was interested in finding out about you, and my continued thoughts on risk, which I clearly stated was what “I should have clarified” when posting a previous link. And I also stated above, “I realize the author of that link…as you pointed out, he makes some generalizations and even misstatements when referring to home owner’s insurance policies. I think that his example cases are over the top.”
You said, “Who said there is no risk in various financial aspects we understate (sic)? My concern is using such a blatantly untruthful argument to illustrate your point that there is risk in paying discretionary money to pay off one’s mortgage.”
What is blatently untruthful about opportunity cost? Interest rate risk? Liquidity risk? Market risk? If I didn’t make it clear, my argument is not about whether someone should use discretionary funds to pay down a mortgage. I applaud those who make good financial decisions, including aggresive debt paydown, when they take into consideration the larger picture, including their own risk tolerance.
I stated that for someone like you have made yourself out to be, the “risks” involved are lower than it may be for others. And in this economic environment, those factors and “risks” need to be taken into account.
Matt,
You said, “But so you will know, I was never asked to be an agent with MMA. It was presented to as I described on the other blog (on a trip I made) and I bought the system and decided to start using it. I can tell you, because I just looked at it, that the words money merge is on the software I used. Sorry to disappoint you in your diligent research on this. I still don’t know what you’re trying to prove…”
I don’t think I was trying to prove anything. I was just curious on what program you were using, since 4+ years is technically longer than those clients who bought from United First Financial. And since those agents/users are the most vocal on the internet, I have learned quite a bit about their program. But not so much about some of the other ones, except they for the most part function similarly. I don’t mind if you don’t want to mention the actual program. I’m just curious that’s all.
I remain shocked that RTL has let so much time pass with no response. It seems she’d rather hang on to the data entry error than admit to the truth. More so, I’m sorry that more agents don’t frequent this site. It would seem that 4 agents could hop on and either agree with me or confirm RTL’s numbers, and show me my error. Logic tell me that when I go into the MMA site and ignore the cost of the program, it should beat my spreadsheet slightly, by using the HELOC shuffle. If that Shuffle can’t save more than $3500 (it can’t), then we can quantify not the savings of MMA, but its own “true cost”. Gas grill $400 today, true cost = $1600. MMA cost today $3500, true cost $14000. The only thing ironic here is the use of word Truth in RTL’s moniker. As least I pay my taxes, and then some.
HI Joe,
NO I am still here, but I have been really busy and now talking to large residential subdivisions and HOA’s about helping their homeowners and builders with this financial tool so sorry but this is much more important than blogging on the internet. People need helpl out there and we work 15 hour days trying to help them……that is what is important. I ran your numbers and still I got a payoff of little over 14 yrs so I really dont’ know how you are deriving at your numbers and maybe you are not using the money merge account system, but if you were , you would derive at the same numbers.I will not be blogging on this anymore because it really is a waste of time for everyone because people are going to listen to themselves and what they think they know. Also, because I did some research and found out that “blogging on these sites” is an actual business and a money maker for the person that has the site up, and they want people to blog because that makes more hits on their site which creates more ways for them to make revenue and sell advertising and paper click marketing on their blogs. So you see bloggers and sites like these absolutely love all these messages. People create ways to dispute products and solutions, and say they are a scam so that they get more controversy and conversations, but really you know that most of you are just making statments that are not true just to make them.
I used the UFF MMA site to produce my numbers.
How dare you call me and others here names, but when you are caught in a blatant falsehood (which I kindly offer you to correct as an error) you claim to be done. Not the first time you offered to not visit and defend your position.
If you have any contacts (I assume you agents all hang together, den of thieves style) you can ask a fellow agent to set you straight. Why not run an analysis and sent it to me? I catch most errors in seconds, the tougher ones in minutes.
Madoff was sentenced to 150 years. Maybe the scammers of UFF will only get 3-5.
TRTiL
“Paper click marketing”, sign me up!
Joe,
In addition to the MMA program, there is also the “analysis” web-interfaced program where an agent can plug in probable numbers to generate the reports that I’m sure you’ve seen. When I plug in the standard 6% $200,000 mortgage, with semi-monthly income of $2500, a savings account of $5000, a checking account with $1000, no creditors, and no other debts (only the $200 discretionary income), and no HELOC, the analysis software says the pay off will be in 21 years, payoff date of 6/1/2030. The full ammount of the MMA ($3,500) was paid from the savings account.
Adding a zero balance HELOC ($15,000 limit) to the above analysis, changes the payoff to 20.75 years (3/1/2030). I did this in under two minutes. I don’t know why this would be so hard for TRTiL to do. It requires input in only 5 screens (Property, Mortgage, Income, Banking, and Analysis).
The 3 month difference using the HELOC is equivalent to making a $1500 extra payment in the first month and then continuing with $200/month (248 months with 387 final payment). $1500 happens to be what is leftover in the savings account after paying the full fee for the MMA (5K – 3.5K).
And it would seem that faith alone can improve those results by as much as five years or a bit more. Like a moth to a flame, you know she’ll be back. (I find her remark on the blog traffic laughable, did she just arrive on the boat? She doesn’t know that blogs tend to run ads to make a few cents by sending guests to purchase something? Does she think television is any better? Paper click is right. Innumerate, illiterate, and just ignorant, I suppose.)
“I used MMA for four years. It worked. I paid down my mortgage at the rate it said it would. It was a great psychological boost to me to have a system that helped me accomplish this.”
Hmmmm….Me thinks me sees another problem. The original analysis is based on current spending levels. You said it was a great psycological boost…and in the S.D. blog you said it led you to decrease your wasteful spending and pay down your mortgage even more aggressively. If it did so, you would be paying down your mortgage far more quickly than the original analysis.
If indeed, it paid down your mortgage no faster than it originally said you would, then the software had no effect on your spending whatsoever.
Sorry, but math never lies.
I beleive we have a breakdown in understanding by all parties both pro and against MMA.The only way to solve any disputes is with understanding from where each side of the arguement comes to his or her conclusions. Maybe the MMA is overpriced, maybe its underpriced. The answer lies with the individual, being a financial professional for the last eight years has helped me greater understand that what product works for you may not be suitable for your neighbor. Without knowing a persons financial situation I beleive it is pointless to argue whether the products they choose to use are appropraite until we understand their situation and what they are capable of accomplishing.
Price is a factor but is not the only factor as is evident with any product we purchase. How can we justify then paying 50,000 for a vehicle when we can get similar results with 25,000 one.Price alone does not make a product or a company a scam, nor does lack of value from one individuals point of view. Companies come and companies go and time reveals all, I beleive people have been calling Amway a scam for over 4 decades and yet they still employee thousands of people and sell hndreds of millions of dollars of merchandise, yet some still say its a scam, I do not see the logic in this, as scams are found out and then eventually weeded out by the market place.Whether you like the MMA or not it continues to grow and produce results, ultimitly the market will decide whether it is a viable product at a viable price. Peoples opinions vary but the markets never lie, I believe that time will only enhance the value of the MMA , and that contrary to many posting on this site people are smart enough to make decisions about program regardless of what anyone tells them. Ive seen it in my business every day fro the past eight years. Thats my ten cents atke it for wat its worth to you and good luck to all whichever side you favor.
“Price alone does not make a product or a company a scam, ”
but false advertising makes it a scam….and I have yet to meet, hear from, or read about an agent that meets all these criteria:
1. Is honest
2. Thoroughly understands the MMA (ie, can do the simple math to simulate it correctly)
3. Understands finances
And I have interacted with literally hundreds of agents.
“Whether you like the MMA or not it continues to grow”
That might not be true….it’s MLM…and many of the top people are jumping ship. The company has issued policies to the agents NOT to post on internet blogs and forums because these sites (with people telling the truth) are getting too high of search engine results. Many top level people are jumping ship. I don’t think it is growing, but that’s my gut feel not based on any data.
I can asure you you dont last in the financial industry through two of the worst market corrections in our nations history by not being honest. My business is proff of that. also, unless you are schooled in the process of factorial math, which Im pretty sure your not then no you wuoldnt understand how it works , just as none of us understands how a microprossessor produces graphics, text and other functions through silicon, that doent mean the technology is flawed. I can assure you I understand about finances. These three points automatically make your points mute as you have made a blanket statement.Contrary to what you think US dept of labor statistics show great growth in the direct selling industries. You can look for yourself at USdepartmentoflabor .gov
Tom, I actually do know factorials (note: “factorial math” is a made up term, it’s like saying “division math”). You being the long standing financial expert, you’d know factorials are completely unnecessary. If you want to know the optimal order to repay debt, order the loans from highest interest rate to lowest (tax adjusted of course), and go to town. Of course, you’d also know the UFF’s MMA algorithm isn’t even optimal for that given approach, right?
If you did know factorials and the computations involved, you’d know that a computer calculating the payoff dates on *ALL* the combinations of 30 loans by way of brute force (doing all 30*29*28*….*3*2*1 combinations) would take a rather long time versus a person ordering 30 interest rates. It’s an extreme example, but factorials get big quick, and in this case, unnecessary.
“Contrary to what you think US dept of labor statistics show great growth in the direct selling industries.”
??? What are you talking about? We are talking about 1 company with 1 product….UFF’s MMA. We aren’t talking the entire direct selling industry.
Keep posting, you should have the reputation you think you’ve earned torched in no time.
CALVIN , Thanks for your acknowlegement of me being a longtime financial expert, no one has ever given me that endorsement,appreciate it. also you said “that might be true..Its MLM” I thought you were referencing the industry,my bad, but I beleive contrary to you that UFF is continuing to grow. Dont see how our reputations have anything to do with opposing points of view.
Oh, I don’t think you are a financial expert in any way, shape or form, I was just pointing out that you seem to think that way. IMO, any financial planner pushing the UFF product needs and and all credentials yanked since they are either ignorant or dishonest.
So….any comments on the complete uselessness of “factorial math”? Do you, as someone working in the financial industry, think that running millions to trillions of different debt payback order scenarios is a worthwhile exercise?
trying to find credibilty in your statements when you say “you being a long standing fianacial expert” then saying ” I dont think you are a financial expert in any way shape or form” I think any excersise that may reveal the fastest way to accomlish something is worthwhile regardless of what you may think.Im only here to learn other side of coin, not be attcaked when my statements dont match your opinions. If I were ignorant and dishonest I wouldnt care about others veiwpoints and not be here in this forum.m Id just be out slinging MMA’s not caring if it works or not.
Tom –
Sorry, once you pull out the “factorial math”, your credibility drops to nil.
I happen to be an electrical engineer and do understand how text and graphics are generated. Funny you pulled that one out. Had you talked about something medical, that would be different.
But I went to college for 4 years to understand these things. The math behind MMA is based on fourth grade arithmetic and doesn’t even keep up with that. I’ve proven it and was looking for your comments, not the endless agent rhetoric.
Joe, I could say same thing about your “But I went to college for four years to understand these things” That drops your credibility to nil. What does college have to do with credibility, I went for 8 years, your logic would mean im twice as credible as you, and we both know thats not the case. I was mearly looking to see your level of understanding and your attack was unnecessary, yes your electrical engineering back ground helps you understand how text and graphics are generated but its not necessary to know that in order to operate a computer, thats point i was trying to get across. Seems we will agree to disagree and I thank your for your time and youve given me a differnt point of view to ponder.Would it be safe to say that if the MMA cost same as say quick books pro we wouldnt be having these conversations?
Tom you wrote “just as none of us understands how a microprocessor produces graphics.” I happen to have an EE degree. You brougyt up the topic, not me. What does graphics processing, fourier transforms, or Schrodinger’s cat have to do with MMA? Why do agents always reach for analogies that easily fail? You compare the knowledge that is the equal of a 4 year college degree to a piece of software that shows how it fails at fourth grade math.
For “free”, MMA lags simple prepayment, but by only a bit. It’s less about the price than about all the exaggerated claims which is what make it a scam.
I’ve proven many times that the system doesn’t live up to its own claims, often posting using only UFF video links or web site as reference. Agents choose to go off on tangents discussing everything but the system itself.
The MMA is not a subscription-based service. By definition, it can only “grow” with each new sale or new agent, but the rate of growth has decreased substantially, and that can’t bode well for UFirst, who have fixed costs which must be paid.
Of course, UFirst is a terrible way to make money, because most people see right through the sales pitch. That’s why there are almost as many agents as there are clients. Published UFirst sales figures are dim, with a very small number of agents making a decent income, just like every other MLM.
Tom, as agent #920831, you’re one of the newer agents on the block (there were 56000+ agents before you), and you’re apparently new to debating the merits of the MMA online. Having monitored new agent signups, the rate has definitely slowed. A memo went out to agents back in late 2007, warning them not to engage “naysayers” online, because the popularity of these discussions only increases the search rankings. Maybe you didn’t get the memo.
Craig,
Tom posted a response to your 6/24 post above and lumps you in with US taxpayers, if you haven’t seen* it yet.
*This new inline reply system is easy to have sub converstions, but difficult to track the most recent posts.
Yeah, it’s a tradeoff, I think that it’s worth it though?
I think it is fine, although I have seen a few examples of replies that were under a specific comment that should have been at the end, but I guess the UFirst agents that come by here can’t all be up-to-speed on the commenting mechanisms.
“Would it be safe to say that if the MMA cost same as say quick books pro we wouldnt be having these conversations?”
I think it is safe to say that, regardless of the price, most people wouldn’t be arguing to feverishly if UFF agents would just tell the whole truth. But that isn’t the case, they use phrases like…
“let the banks money pay for your house”
“factorial math does what people can’t do on their own”
“pay off your house faster than you can on your own”
“leverage your money”
“no change in cash flow”
“no extra payments”
“pay down your house in 1/3rd of the time with no change in budget”
etc, etc, etc…
lies, lies, lies…
then their’s plain ignorant statements like….
“unless you are schooled in the process of factorial math, which Im pretty sure your not then no you wuoldnt understand how it works”
and that’s directly from you.
As an agent, I will say that this program doesn’t work for every person. With all my clients, I run the analysis, then I run a mortgage payoff calculator using their discretionary income. I would say that most clients, it is in their best interest to go with the MMA. Not all mind you. Each situation is different. But one of the problems with sending a check with your discretionary income to the bank is that people have a hard time writing that check. And making sure that they haven’t spent it that month. With the MMA, that extra money is an afterthought. It does create discipline in spending. And that is one very overlooked benefit. Sure, someone could do this on their own, and probably come close to what we have, but do they have the discipline to follow through on it.
But where this really helps is with paying off multiple debts. It’s not as simple as paying off the highest interest rate. That is a good start, but it may not be the best method, depending on other factors such as payment, open-ended vs. close-ended loans, balance, etc. If you have the time to sit down and figure out how to pay off 5 or 6 debts so that you maximize your interest pay off, more power to you. Some people would like to take the guess work out of it.
Chris, get ready for your beatdown, its coming. Ive tried to learn reasons for opposition to MMA here but despite being civil throughout, my posts have constatnly been criticized. I will be calling UTAH Deptment of commerce and Utah justice department to answer questions about valitity of UFF being a scam. Will head whatever advice they give me, will know if im right and these guys are.good luck
Tom, I just don’t get what people have against this product. Before I joined up, I did a lot of research because I was in mortgages before and I was very skeptical. I believe in it not just for the tangible, but the intangible benefits that it brings. Fact is, if this is so easy and everyone can do it, why aren’t they. Maybe they need that guide to get them going. And as I said, the program is not for everyone. Not all agents will say that, but I will.
Chris – May I trouble you to run an analysis on the numbers I offer above?
$200K, 6% mort 30yr. 6% HELOC. NO other debt. NO other funds. $200/mo extra to pay to mortgage. Tot income is $5000 net/mo.
This is the classic example but with only $200 extra. When you reply, please note whether you include the $3500 fee or not, either way.
What payoff time do you get?
Joe
Thanks to all who have commented an provided feedback, is appreciated. I have just got off the phone with The Utah Dept of Commerce and the Dept of Consumer protection.Both,”while not endorsing any product or company assured me that as of 6/01/09 UFF was of good and active statnding with those regulatory agencies” I have also made inquiries with the Federal Trade Commission and have asked my attorney to contact the Utah attorney generals Office to inquiry as to status of UFF. If they say its ok that will answer my questions. Thanks to all and wish you best.
Tom,
I could have saved you a call. Most users are agents. The rest bought from a trusted friend or relative. Hoe many complaints do you honestly believe are on file? That few are complaining doesn’t make the product reputable.
If you and Chris would reply to the numbers discussion it wouldn’t take long to discredit MMA. Certainly not the 60+ pages I compiled from my blog. It was a learning process. From Calvin, Craig, Jimmy, et al, it only takes a few questions and responses to set things straight. You guys aware Jamie Buckley defected? His Jubilee sites are either closed or for sale. Think he saw the light?
Jamie did not see the light whatsoever, he just changed which program he was hawking. The only “light” he saw was that the UFF name was pretty tarnished on the net (the best sales medium) and decided to sell a competitor’s product.
“Sure, someone could do this on their own, and probably come close to what we have”
Chris…this is EXACTLY the crap we are talking about. By definition, the MMA, with it’s $3500 fee can NEVER beat what people are able to do on their own.
“what you have” might be able to come close to full prepayments….if it were free. But $3500, plus the added interest that brings, measured in thousands, or tens of thousands for those with little discreitonary income is always at a disadvantage.
Stop lying and we will stop calling you liars.
Actually, the MMA does beat what people can do on their own, in most cases. You really have no idea how the program works, or how interest works on a 1st or 2nd mortgage.
“Stop lying and we will stop calling you liars.”
I have proven to my clients the benefits of the program. If you have a problem, maybe you should do something about it. Sue the company. Do something instead of being a little whiner on a website.
BS. I know EXACTLY how it works. I’ve simulated in a spreadsheet that shows daily money movements, interest accumulations, ect along with a side-by-side comparison to a standard prepayment system. I’ve paramaterized all the variables so that one can enter in various interest rates and terms and the numbers adjust. It just never works out for the MMA. Amazing what that $3500 anchor does.
And as others have said, I cannot sue. I have no damages to claim. Only the customers you have lied to on a daily basis could do that. But someone would have to show them your lies first.
Chris, you planning to answer my simple number question? Or are you just going to start name calling?
Years ago when I remarked about Madoff’s returns being impossible, I was called a whiner. But now I laugh last and laugh loudest. MMA does not beat DIY, and I can prove it. With numbers not words.
Calvin and I can’t sue, we have no standing, no loss to claim.
Joe,
I look at the DIY numbers everytime I do an analysis. Like I said, sometimes the numbers are in the MMA’s favor, sometimes not. But there are other advantages to the MMA than strict numbers. But if you have multiple debts, the system really works in your favor, which I doubt you can figure out with your DIY system.
So you will not answer the question I pose above, the classic scenario with no other debt, $200/mo.
Chris
You posted “But where [MMA] really helps is with paying off multiple debts. It’s not as simple as paying off the highest interest rate. That is a good start, but it may not be the best method, depending on other factors such as payment, open-ended vs. close-ended loans, balance, etc. If you have the time to sit down and figure out how to pay off 5 or 6 debts so that you maximize your interest pay off, more power to you. Some people would like to take the guess work out of it.”
I’ve posted spreadsheets showing how a simple debt snowball using highest interest pays debts off faster than MMA, and more cheaply. And all it takes is one addition per debt and one subtraction, once per month.
Please show us a scenario that proves the opposite. Your statement sounds an awful like the spurious “factorial math” claim. Every agent that comes on these boards makes the same claim and never backs it up. Please be first. Thanks.
Since I have no idea what numbers you are using, how can I compare?
C’mon Chris, don’t back out now! YOU posted the claim, on 07/01 at 2:57 pm, that MMA is better in some cases. So please show us those cases. Show us the payment schedules. Show us how much interest is paid.
In case you aren’t familiar with the debt snowball method, which is all over the ‘net, here it is. You simply commit a sum to pay off all your debt, choosing to concentrate on one debt, and paying minimums on the rest. When that one debt is paid, you shift the extra cash to another debt, and so on, until everything is paid. How you choose the debt to pay off is up to you. Some people like to pay the smallest debts first, regardless of the interest rate, because they figure that’ll be easiest. While it’s not best financially, if that keeps them focused on payoff, great.
Chris -
I know there are three people challenging you at once here.
I ask you to answer the simplest question;
$200K, 6%/30yr mort $5K net income per month. No other debt at all, no other assets (i.e. no money in ck/savings) Only extra left each month is $200.
What is the payoff time using MMA? This should take you 2 minutes to respond to. When you have the time.
Joe