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United First Financial Money Merge Accounts: Scam or Legit?
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A reader recently sent an email asking about a program United First Financial runs called a Money Merge Account and whether it was legitimate. United First Financial promises that the program, which costs $3500, would have you pay off the mortgage in one-third to one-half the time it normally would take. Knowing nothing about money merge accounts and knowing a little bit more about simple math, I smelled a fat $3500 scam brewing. The only scenario in which I could see $3500 cutting your mortgage in half is if you had a $7000 mortgage. But, setting my mental scam alerts aside, I did some more research about the plan.
Apparently it’s a fancy name for an accelerated mortgage repayment scheme. The first step in the money merge account is to take out a second mortgage on your home, a home equity line of credit. Then, what you do pay your entire paycheck towards the first mortgage and withdraw money from the HELOC to cover your expenses. You save a little money because the interest on a HELOC is calculated based on average daily balance rather than the final monthly balance. This lets you pay off more of the mortgage at the beginning of the month and then be charged less interest on the HELOC. (this assumes the same interest rate, which is a big flaw)
However, the plan also has a lot of other assumptions and flaws.
- It assumes that your HELOC interest rate will be the same as your first mortgage interest rate – very unlikely. The bigger the HELOC rate, the less you save on that difference.
- It assumes a single monthly paycheck so it’s a plan that loses some of its power if you are paid irregularly or every two weeks.
- One big flaw is that there is never discussion of HELOC fees. I’ve never opened a HELOC but I imagine it’s not free.
- This plan requires that you don’t save at all for anything else. Since your entire paycheck goes towards the mortgage and you withdraw expenses, it penalizes you drawing on the HELOC for non-essentials. Why pay $100 towards a 6-7% mortgage and then borrow $100 from a 10% HELOC?
- Finally, as if all those weren’t enough, you have to pay $3,500 for a program to help you do this!?
In researching this article I researched a lot of sites and they were nearly unanimous in their opinion that these types of programs are not worth the money (not surprisingly). They’re not scams in the sense that you pay your $3500 and they disappear into the night but it’s something you can do yourself.
This begs the question, should you use it to force discipline? I could justify paying $100 to enforce discipline because it can save you quite a bit in the long run, if you can overcome the failings, but $3500 is ridiculous. If you have $3500 and you want to pay off your mortgage sooner, send a $3500 check to your mortgage company. (if you want a legitimate and easy way to pay off a mortgage faster, consider making mortgage payments every two weeks)
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I am shocked that after all the dialog, it goes silent. RTL and Chris both decide that my very simple question gets ignored. Why? Because with out $1000/mo there to really confuse the issue, a much lesser number brings out the factthat there is *no* saving from MMA. It’s all your money and then some. Side by side, even free, MMA falls short of DIY.
Dear Bargaineering Jim,
Nice blog site but – like the vast majority of critics of U-1st – you don’t know what you’re talking about based on your cursory review the Money Merge Account.
Sending two checks per month to a mortgage company WILL reduce your mortgage. By about three years. Sending $3,500 to your mortgage company will reduce the average $200k mortgage by about 16 months (if you send the $3,500 along with your very first mortgage payment).
I have been a financial planner for 25 years and I use MMA selectively with clients; I do not market the program as many U-1st agents do and I am not a “Kool-Aid drinker.” There are no doubt dishonest people who have managed to sign up as agents but the MMA system itself is without parallel. There are 20 BBB complaints against UFF right now. And about 40,000 MMA accounts sold.
If you’d like, I’ll send you an MMA analysis for my most recent clients (with their names off it of course). It takes their current 28 year mortgage and reduces it to 16, saving them $106,000 in interest. Oh, forgot to mention, this time and interest savings includes them ADDING $100k to their debt picture to finish construction on a vacation home. So in essence, they not only pay off their current $400k mortgage but they also pay off the additional $100k in 12 fewer years than they’re on track just to pay off the first mortgage. And it’s GUARANTEED to work or they get their $3,500 fee back.
If we look at the $3,500 as an “investment” over a 16 year time horizon for a “return” (saving money is the same thing as earning money) of $106,000, we find – surely you and other critics can use the ROI calculator on Excel – a an annual rate of return of 23.76%. Tax-free.
If you or any of the other critics can show me specifically how to pay off a mortgage faster – and have the results be guaranteed or I get my money back – I’m a buyer of that cheaper system. But please first answer this specific question (which a bright financial advisor/attorney critic has somehow failed to get back to me on): How does your “system” tell me exactly how much of a check I should write to the mortgage company each month and on what date, exactly, will I pay off my mortgage?
Just for esses & giggles, I took up JoeTaxpayer’s challenge (I don’t have time or interest to read all the posts prior): The answer Joe, is 13.2 years and $113k less interest paid. So let’s see, I spend $3,500 now for a guaranteed savings of $113k – perhaps my 25 years of investment experience fails me but a 30% annual ROI seems decent.
But you forgot to ask a good question, Joe: What happens when the same $200/month discretionary person gets hit with a HELOC rate rise from 5% – what I used initially, even though it’s high – to 10% (a 100% rise in interest rates, coming courtesy of Obama). The answer: Payoff in 13.4 yrs and $109.4k interest saved. If you have something better, I’m all ears.
A 13.2 year payoff would require an equivalent monthly payment of $1831 vs the $1199 payment. My challenge uses $200 extra income. You claim MMA creates extra savings of $432 from the system itself. I call this innumeracy, when people are unable to see the obvious. Calvin would call you an idiot or a moron, not me.
You are concerned about payoff? You are wrong by over 6 years, yet you think you have an exact date. By all means, send me the analysis, I usually catch the entry error in seconds, a tough one, minutes.
If you do not understand that MMA has the potential to extract about $25/month tops “from the bank” you should not be selling it.
This is just amazing. Unbelievable.
I had a rabbit once named Calvin who thought I was an idiot and a moron. Thomas Kuhn would call MMA a paradigm-shift, when people change their basic assumptions within a prevailing theory.
I used the $200 discretionary income figure you requested but MMA does not simply add the $200 to the mortgage payment (in which case only a moron or an idiot would buy it). The MMA system is not what creates the savings; it’s what monitors it and suggests Heloc payments, based on each client’s capability, to the primary mortgage company. What creates the savings is the trading of closed-end mortgage interest for open-end Heloc interest.
I’m delighted to send the analysis if you provide an address. It will be amazing and unbelievable.
Dude!!
Whomever you are, if this guy doesn’t get your explaination then there surely would be a medication for his problem out there somewhere.
“What creates the savings is the trading of closed-end mortgage interest for open-end Heloc interest.”
Indeed. And short of doing one of those Jesus’ feeding the multitude things (i.e. miracles) you cannot HELOC $5000 of income to produce $432/mo in savings. You really don’t get that, do you.
I am at b-1 dot org (I own the domain, so just Joe before at symbol is fine.) That’s a hyphen not underscore.
Full disclosure: I accidentally input 5% (not 6% per JoeTax’s original request) as the mortgage to be paid off ($1,074 P&I/month). Before Calvin and JoeTax go off the deep end and find that “fraud,” I thought I’d mention it for the record. I also input a 5% Heloc rate which is high and then I ran it again at a 10% Heloc rate with the differences highlighted in my 11:59am post.
Full disclosure 2: MMA is not a “get out of debt” program (most of which in fact, ARE scams). MMA only works if people have positive monthly cash flow (and works better the more monthly cash flow they have).
Joe, when the clients I’ve had on MMA for two years look at their year-end mortgage statements and see the dramatic decline in Balance that the MMA software predicted, who is it that is performing the Biblical miracle? Their mortgage company, UFF, me? Is everyone in on UFF’s scam? I thought it was Microsoft that owned everything and everyone. If I understand your last comment, it’s just not possible – so where are the lawsuits and the attorneys general?
Analysis is coming over momentarily…
I suspect you’ll mistakenly enter the income as bi-weekly not semi monthly. That will “create” 8% more loaves of bread per year. Innocent, innumerate error. Fix it first. Ok?
Too soon for him to read my post above, the analysis came, and sure enough, the $2500 semi monthly income was entered as bi-weekly. Once he fixed that error, NJBlue wrote to me that he calculated a 20.8 year payoff, just a bit longer than the 13.2 originally claimed. I hoped he’d come back and report that here, as fast as I was to catch the error.
I wonder if the couple months difference between the sophisticated algorithms of MMA and my spreadsheet is still enough to justify the daily reporting to the software and the risk the HELOC brings. He didn’t send me the fixed analysis shett yet, so I’ll still wait to see if the $3500 fee was taken into account, maybe not.
I’ve noticed the change in tone from the latest UFF agents. Instead of posting their projections and telling us what the calculated discretionary income is, they simply assert that this is what the projected payoff period is and how much interest will be saved. No comparisons to anything else.
I could make the same bold-faced assertions with any of the do-it-yourself spreadsheets and guarantee that if you follow the spreadsheet, you will get the results. After all, math is math.
“I have been a financial planner for 25 years…
If we look at the $3,500 as an “investment” over a 16 year time horizon for a “return” (saving money is the same thing as earning money) of $106,000, we find – surely you and other critics can use the ROI calculator on Excel – a an annual rate of return of 23.76%. Tax-free.”
You are a HORRIBLE, ******HORRIBLE******* representative of real financial planners and a PERFECT example of why we give people like you the crap you deserve and call you frauds.
$3,500 does NOT save $106,000. THEIR DISCRETIONARY INCOME DOES.
23.76%????!!!! If you put in the actual added payments into your incorrect calculation to make the real one, you will find a savings of the mortgage rate, not 23.76%. End of story.
Financial planner my @ss. When people of other professions are having to correct your work, you are in the wrong field.
Typical MMA salesman….wrong numbers…fraudulent marketing.
Calvin – NJBlue (A policeman doing PF on the side?) wrote back to me admitting the bi-weekly/semimonthly error. I wonder how many agents make this mistake as the entry field is likely set to bi-weekly as default.
The analysis he sent to me and Tracy showed that mistake (clearly to me and Tracy, to agents, not so much) as well as $6500 in checking/savings. After all that, my (free) sheet beats MMA by the 9 months represented by the time value of $3500 over the 20 years. I can pretend to be smart, or I can say that 4th grade math will prove out any MMA analysis.
If people still want a $3500 Egg Timer (c) Calvin they can buy it, but they should understand its cost. In this analysis, it turns into $9287, ‘true cost.’ Let them present it using the truth not the crazy claims they have been. Jeez. ROI? Negative.
The silence from these once-loud UFirst agents is deafening. I don’t know how many of these smackdowns Joe and Tracy and L2G and others are going to have to administer before other UFirst agents stop trying to prove the impossible, but as with most smackdowns, they never fail to entertain.
Nicely done, everyone.
I appreciate the complement.
I can’t tell what led to this, but I suspect that allowing the agents to use $1000 of “discretionary” income helped obfuscate the truth. Insisting they offer numbers using a more realistic $200 helps show that (a) MMA lags DIY by 9 months and (b) that most agents can’t catch a huge error in their analysis.
For any agent who wishes, they can download my sheet and at least know that when the difference is 9 years (!) between us, well, that ain’t sophisticated algorithms, that’s a data entry error. Even when I trust that people like RTL have the best of intentions, the agents’ lack of even 4th grade math skills means they cannot catch that mistake. If nothing else, this raises new and troubling questions.
New advertising copy:
Using UFirst’s MMA software, you can cut 10 years off your mortgage. Doing it yourself would save you 9 more months, but for only $10,000 in real cost, this software serves as your personal egg timer, reminding you to pay your mortgage and juggle funds around, so the software looks busy.
I am thinking of offering a service where I call a subscriber, personally each month, and say “how much is in your checking account? Send it to your mortgage.” Only $25/month for the call.
Craig,
I’m not silent; I just did not have time to reply today but hope to tomorrow. Joe makes some good points; Tracy ended our debate without proving anything to me – just because one cannot figure out how something is done does not make it un-doable – and Calvin seems rather unstable. If I am wrong and UFF is the scam some (21 BBB disgruntled customers and a few bloggers) say it is, I will concede defeat on this site.
What I did have time to do, and given the level of vitriol directed toward UFF, was more carefully inspect my analysis input numbers: original mortgage = $200k @ 6%; 5% Heloc; $2,307 bi-weekly income and $1,000 in checking and savings; $200/month discretionary income to come up with a 13.6 year debt elimination period – not the 20.8 I mentioned in error, Joe – and an interest cost of $93,364 ($138,313 savings), net of all costs.
DIY, using Joe’s Excel sheet (and Bankrate.com to double-check) is $151,876 over 21 years. So MMA is $58,512 better than DIY plus the money customers earn over the 7.4 years of investing their old mortgage payment of $1,200 plus the $200 discretionary.
More tomorrow, as time allows. Toodles.
PS. Calvin, I KNOW the savings is from the increased money applied to principal and that MMA is not actually an investment; it’s a cost. I was likening it to an investment for perspective purposes. Please calm down so you can return to marketing the highly ethical financial planning concepts of “buying term and investing the difference,” Separately Managed Accounts, variable annuities and 529 Plans like “real” financial planners do.
quit lying and people will treat you with respect. you deserve to be called out for the liar you are, so expect it.
if you know the real cost is the real payments, say so. otherwise, you basically said every car 100% financed is free….since one can ignore the payments.
you are a financial joke and any money you’ve made from financially “advising” (read: conning) people need sto be returned.
“So MMA is $58,512 better than DIY”
the sad thing is you probably actually believe this. MMA, with it’s $3,500 anchor will always come out worse. Especially the non-optimized UFF version, which is sad, since MMA is their trademark.
??? NJB – You are withdrawing your admission that your number should be 20.8? What happened to that? I kept your email. You plan to send me the ‘new’ analysis?
I found an agent willing to send me an analysis, and the $200/mo resulted in 21.8 yrs payoff. She properly entered the $5000/mo income, why do you insist on bi-weekly? And why don’t any two agents match?
MMA can’t produce the result you so want to believe. If MMA did what it promised, correctly, it would save about $3000*6%/yr or about $15/mo. But since MMA cost is $3500, at best it will not quite pay for itself.
Joe, I entered bi-weekly because, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 82.5% of Americans are paid either bi-weekly or weekly (sending copy to your e-mail). So 17.5% of the time (semi-monthly or monthly), the way you want to frame the argument is valid. Your analysis of DIY also includes a first month principal addition of $3,500 that improves your results. Except the prospective client does not have $3,500; he has $200 (and the ability to put $3,500 on the Heloc which is why my results indicated “net of all costs”) – I don’t call that innumeration; I just call it – as a now-unemployed Harvard grad used to – “fuzzy math.”
So, on the $200k, 6%, 30yr mortgage with $1,000 in Savings and Checking (I had $2k in Savings on my last analysis), earning 1% and a 5% Heloc, I come up with 13.7 years of payments and a total interest cost of $94,637. This includes paying off the Heloc and the $3,500. The blogger who ended our argument after failing to prove anything seems to erroneously think the mortgage balance gets transferred to the Heloc and likes your “money shuffle” phrase.
DIY without your $3,500 first month is 21 years and $151,876 interest paid. So (yes Calvin) MMA is $57,239 better than DIY, INCLUDING its “outrageous” $3,500 cost. Unless it is a total fraud which I’ll come to in a moment.
But since I am interested in improving net worth, I would be remiss to end the analysis there. The MMA client has 6.3 years of no mortgage payments (and $200/mo) to get to the time your DIY person is mortgage-free. If we invest/save that $1,399.10 at 2% (even a “not real” financial guy like me can achieve that I think), at year 21 the MMA client has no mortgage PLUS $113,477 while the DIYer has no mortgage and no extra money. So at year 21, the MMA is better than DIY by $113,477 net of all costs. [The "ROI" - or improvement to net worth on those numbers, Calvin, which actually probably double-counts the $3,500, is 14.23% and 18.02% respectively.]
It seems to me that you intellectuals keep saying that this can’t be done, yet you all realize the power of financial leverage. If I buy a $250k and put $100k down then sell it later for $350k, I have increased my cash by 100% even though the house appreciated by 40%. How is this possible?! More on next post…
NJB, don’t gloat just yet, your numbers are impossible. To go from 20.8 to 13.6 years, you have to add an extra $400 to the $200/month already being spent. The HELOC shuffle can’t do that. Engineers are taught to check their numbers and get a feel for them, so they don’t just blindly apply formulas and go with whatever comes out at the end of their slide rule or computer. I suggest you go back to Bankrate and verify my numbers. Then go and recheck yours.
To repeat what Jimmy just said,
$200K, 6% 30 yrs, $1199.10, 20.96 yrs = $1399.10 exactly the extra $200/mo, 13.6 years requires a payment of $1795.64, $596.54 more/mo or $396.54/mo more than the $200 we discussed. Does anyone with more than a handful of functioning brain cells think that anything can recover $4758 per year by shuffling one’s average checking balance which is never higher than $5000, and would average maybe $3000? Is that not obviously absurd?
I know Jim will need to moderate any link. Looking forward to this one posting here.
link
will take you to an Australian web site, their version of the SEC. They are now going after UFF-like companies and those making the same crazt claims.
The link shows one such lawsuit. It ends with ‘For consumers the key message is that the only way to pay off your loan sooner is by moving to a loan with a cheaper interest rate or by making extra repayments.’
Calvin, Jimmy, Craig, you been consulting with the ASIC? The above quote could have been any of us talking.
You gents seem to be discounting completely the fact that if MMA has the client write a $1,000 check from the HELOC to the mortgage, in that month, the client has just fast-forwarded 5 months of $200 additions. If the client writes that check the day before his income comes in and reduces the Heloc balance, he will have paid $0 in Heloc interest while eliminating mortgage interest. Helocs use Average Daily Balance interest; mortgages amortize interest. Btw, why aren’t you guys outraged that you make 10 years of mortgage payments on that 6%/$200k and still owe $167k on it (after paying $112k in interest)? It’s a mortgage that’s a rip-off, not the system to eliminate it.
MMA combines a number of things – leverage, ADB vs. amortize, cash-flow, blah, blah, blah (the “blah, blah, blah” is there for Calvin to jump on) – to achieve the results it does. It seems to me that because you guys are smart and have not figured out how the smart people at UFF combine all this, you are frustrated and suggest “it can’t be done; ipso-facto, MMA is a fraud.” What is a more likely scenario: The 50k, 75k, maybe 100k people who bought MMA included only 21 “smart” people (those who complained to BBB) and you guys OR you guys are missing something? Please consider one of my two challenges at the end of this unfortunately-long post.
There’s another system, BTW, that you can probably start ranting about as well called the Home Ownership Accelerator. I don’t use it even though it may be a bit better (at least theoretically) than MMA but it too takes advantage of ADB versus Amortization. I don’t want to be 100% variable loans (Heloc) in a rising-rate environment or I’d look at it more closely. Ordering loans by interest rate, as Calvin once suggested, is not sufficient because ADB loans are fairer and easier to pay off than amortizing loans.
I’m also sending to Joe a thought exercise since perhaps some of the MMA naysayers are mortgage brokers who like to keep rolling mortgages and pocketing commissions each time rates drop 50 basis points. Summary is this: Ethical Jim, the mortgage broker, rolls his client out of a 7%-30 at year 15 and (after pocketing a big commission) sends client to a 5.5%-30, ostensibly “to improve cash flow.” Client puts 100% of increased cash flow ($470/mo) toward principal on new mortgage – which clients NEVER do in reality – and we get this:
Re-fi customer paid off his house in 27 years at a total cost of $547,824. Had he stayed in the 7% mortgage and done nothing but pay the P&I, he’d be done in 30 years at a cost of $479,017. Ethical Jim the mortgage guy “helped” the client to the tune of -$68,807. And I am the dishonest crook for a $3,500 debt payoff system?!
Are you guys going to soon go after the “extended warranty” folks? I just bough a new washer (and I suspect, I paid Best Buy far more than they paid for it). They wanted to sell me a 5-year warranty (60%+ of which is commission); washers now last on average 8 years so the warranty is 100% unnecessary, unless of course – like all insurance – I need it. There are lots more extended warranties sold than MMAs so maybe we should blog about that. Or maybe we should blog about the evil Personal Trainer industry – paying someone (more than $3,500) to tell you to exercise more and eat less.
Anyway, I’ve expended about as much time as I’m able to on this. You guys have “proven” (to me anyway) nothing except that by using straight line numbers, ignoring the different ways debt service is calculated, eliminating timing of cash flows, ignoring amortized interest, etc., MMA cannot work. MMA sales figures would seem to suggest you’ve missed something and so here are my twin challenges:
1. Calvin once lamented that since he had no damages, he could not sue the evil empire that is UFF. So why not buy a MMA and then sue (sort of “putting your money where your mouth is”). Surely in court, your superior intellects will “prove” the fraud, gain an enormous windfall and help save the unenlightened masses from ne’er-do-well-MMA salespeople. Heck, I can put you in touch with a “fraud investigator” to assist…
2. Become an agent. It only costs $175 – ya pikers! – and would give you all the “inside dirt” and the diabolical “sales pitches” (warning: UFF does not share the proprietary algorithms and/or software code – “or factorial math” (that one’s for you Calvin!) – with agents. You could then attack-from-within, divide-and-conquer and all that stuff.
Surely there’s a business opportunity in here somewhere, too! Instead of spending the amount of time and brainpower you guys do blogging, you could join forces and become “MMA-Rescue Inc.” or something like that. I’ll try to respond to future comments on my analyses, Joe but I have to get back to spending time on my business (which is not MMA sales). As far as I can tell, you folks have not proven MMA cannot work but have forcefully and almost-persuasively stated your belief that it can’t. Which of course, is your right. As is not buying one. Best regards,
NJB82
“if the client writes that check the day before his income comes in and reduces the Heloc balance, he will have paid $0 in Heloc interest while eliminating mortgage interest.”
So what? If he wrote it the day he’s paid, one day’s interest on the $1000 is pennies either way. HELOC shuffle captures few pennies, not enough to pay itself off.
I agree that it’s not tough to find 100K stupid people. 21 out of that number doesn’t sound out of line.
My quiz – A mortgage of $191,812 7% has a payment of $1276.13, 180mo bal $141,977.07. @5.5% the payment due drops to $806.13, the $470 delta you suggested. When added back to the monthly payments, the mortgage now ends at month 156, instead of 180 mo left. He saved exactly 24 months. Thank you for the challenge, I hope I didn’t disappoint. Of course it drops. The refi saved this guy 2 years. You might want to check your numbers, how did you figure it takes longer?
Keep those numbers coming…..
“It seems to me that you intellectuals keep saying that this can’t be done, yet you all realize the power of financial leverage.”
i understand financial leverage. I can also do some pretty good estimating in my head which says your comparison between MMA and DIY is bogus.
This is the problem right here. You are working with a black box with no clue as to how it works. You take the analysis results like biblical scripture and can’t step back and think “does this make sense”?
You are taking a loan, adding principal to it ($3500), and saying with the same amount of money available each month, you save 6,3 years. The HELOC is 5% while the mortgaqe is 6%. Just rerun a standard mortgage at 5% and you will see what you gain if you were able to if you could “flex” the entire balance of the mortgage rather than just a few months at a time (what the MMA does).
Get a clue. We can show what the money movements for an optimal DIY, MMA, etc, etc, will give you while all you can do is incorrectly plug numbers into a black box you don’t understand and hoe and pray it’s right.
You are a joke and given what you are posting, you need to be in jail given it’s outright fraud.
Does hyperbole work in your other arguments? Given the outright fraud being perpetrated and for which I should be imprisoned:
1. Buy product (have standing and “damages”)
2. Contact Eric Holder with complaint
U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20530-0001
3. Sue everyone, become wealthy, quit job and set about life’s work of finally proving, once and for all, that you ARE the smartest person in the world.
“Does hyperbole work in your other arguments?”
Hyperbole? Try math. Seriously, try it for once. It’s not hard.
And I will not EVER give a dime to your parent company. And I could never get wealthy suing for even triple “actual” damages, a common cap on lawsuits. Plus there’s that whole thing about the net being scoured with info specifically showing I knew it was a fraud before I bought it.
Guess you don’t know jack about the law. Do you know anything?
Seriously. Anything?
NJB – Indeed I can show that with just the $200, I get 21 years, if I am permitted to add the $3500 fee to day one (where else would you suggest I add it?) I get 20.25 yrs.
Funny thing, $2307 is actually the correct bi-weekly number to enter. But you have another error on your analysis. I would bet my very soul against the devil’s gold that you have an error which you do not understand. Since you’ve sent me no PDF analysis, I am just reading number here that have no support. I do have a PDF from another agent, these exact number, 262 month payoff. At least one agent got it right. (you want a copy?)
Joe
Joe, Last time I sent an analysis for an off-line conversation, it got posted to a blog site so I’ll have to pass (although you strike me as having more class than that) on sending it but will be delighted to look at the other agent’s figures. Perhaps I made an error as I am trying to do this stuff between phone calls, e-mails and other things so by all means, shoot it over. I’ll send my (non-UFF) spreadsheets to you asap.
In my analysis, the $3500 gets added to the Heloc balance; the client in month one has $200 to attack debt, not $3500.
So, in trying to reconcile NJBlue82′s different results with the ones JoeT got, I decided to have a friend play around with the MMA Analysis to find what could be entered to change the payoff dates.
He tried two scenarios with everything exactly the same except the income ($2,500 semi-monthly vs. $2307.70 bi-weekly).
This is what was entered for each scenario:
Mortgage: $200,000 @ 6%, payment of $1,199.10, Fixed, Conventional, 360 remaining term.
HELOC: $15,000 limit @ 5%, current balance of $0, 120 month term, Variable, Conventional.
Checking: $1,000 @ 0%, average of $500, automatic low limit (set by MMA).
Savings: $1,000 @ 1%, average of $500, automatic low limit.
MMA Payment: $3,500 in full from HELOC.
Discretionary Income: $200 (per month).
The results were interesting to say the least. I encourage NJBlue82 to also enter the exact same data above and first enter $2,307.7 bi-weekly net income, then enter $2,500 semi-monthly net income and report here what he finds. Look carefully on the “Analysis” screen.
Everyone agrees these both result in $60,000 per year, correct? And $200 discretionary income means only $200 left at the end of the month, correct?
I will give NJB a chance to post, but will follow this post up with screen caps of the results for all to see should he choose not to.
Late, differences are
1. Heloc $50k limit, 180 months, vbl
2. ck/sv both $1,000, both at 1% (i.e. ING Direct 1.4%, Everbank 1.02%)
MMA works better for bi-weekly incomers than semi-monthly, as JoeTax noticed, but 82.5% of Americans get paid bi or weekly (weekly numbers work out about the same as bi-weekly does). I’m pretty sure MMA will work better for some customers than it will for others, as they would see from an analysis of their particular situation.
Is there an “a-ha!” here?
Did you enter both income options? As far as the MMA analysis is concerned, which I assume you are using, the different HELOC limits and checking savings rates don’t change the final “payoff” date much, if any at all. Look again and compare closely. There is a reason why your bi-weekly analysis and Joe’s semi-monthly differ, according to the MMA analysis, even though both have the same yearly and discretionary income. But many wouldn’t catch it.
L2G
Are you saying that MMA always assumes a 2-pay, biweekly month, (or 4-week, weekly month) giving it a “free” 2-pay kick every year? That extra 4615 works out to about 385 a month and explains the discrepancy we’re seeing.
Is there a way to turn that off? This is almost as bad as having MMA hijack debt repayments so it can keep using them after the debt is paid back.
Well, I was going to let NJBlue82 answer, but here are the actual screen shots of the analysis screen (prior to creating the pdf reports that you see elsewhere):
This link is the $2,500 semi-monthly income:
http://stashbox.org/569510/2500_SemiMonthly.png
This link is the $2,307.70 bi-weekly income:
http://stashbox.org/569514/2307_BiWeekly.png
And if you look at the “Cashflow Summary” at the bottom, you will see the difference between the two. JimmyDaGeek is correct. The MMA Analysis software computes monthly expenses by taking net income * 2 (semi-monthly AND bi-weekly) or * 4 for weekly, subtracts the user entered discretionary income, and any debt expenses (in this case only the mortgage). So, by default, the two scenarios that were compared have differing expenses even though they had the “same” discretionary income. “Feature” or “bug”, you decide.
The good thing is that there IS a checkbox to “Include extra checks to discretionary income” which can be turned off.
So, what are the values if $2,307.7 bi-weekly is entered but the extra checks are NOT used as discretionary? Years to Pay Off: 21.42
NJB82 was asleep at 11:13, Late, but I promise to take a look at your sheets if time allows this afternoon.
Alert!
Carrie Schwab Pomerantz, the lady who grew up billionaire-dirt-poor on the hardscrabble streets of San Mateo County as Chuck’s daughter, weighed in about paying off mortgages in 2008! If you’re not a Schwab client, you can get her sanitized, typical Wall-Street-compliance department-approved thoughts on creators dot com’s Business and Finance section.
No mention of MMA, good or evil, but I’m hoping she soon joins this blog…
And your point is? Have you compared the screen shots I posted with your analyses? Can you see that your $2,307 bi-weekly income and $200 discretionary was actually not an apples to apples comparison?
Many agents see the final results (ie Pay Off date or Interest saved) without realizing that the results they are comparing can have quite different assumptions. For example, in your bi-weekly run, the MMA assumed the client would have $3,216.30 of monthly expenses. In the semi-monthly run, the MMA assumes the client has $3,600.90 monthly expenses. Clearly, this is not an apples to apples comparison, even though both have “yearly incomes of $60K and monthly discretionary incomes of $200. The reason the bi-weekly pays off in 13.7 years is due to the fact that the former scenario has $384.60 more per month to pay down debt.
You said in a post on 7/14 @ 2:20PM, “MMA combines a number of things – leverage, ADB vs. amortize, cash-flow, blah, blah, blah (the “blah, blah, blah” is there for Calvin to jump on) – to achieve the results it does.”
Even with all the “blah, blah, blah” that the MMA program uses, the simple fact is that a person’s own discretionary income is really the thing that pays down mortgage principal. And if agents post ALL (and I mean all) the data entered into the MMA, it can be shown that anyone can beat it paying down principal on their own, without the -$3,500 handicap the MMA user has.
Late,
Your point about a changing monthly expense number seems excellent and I will review your screens when time allows. This, like JoeTax’s comments, advances the debate and I appreciate it. Back soon.
From the views I have, it was tough to even guess what MMA did with expenses when pay frequency changed. That’s at least trying to get to the bottom of the discrepancy. I hope so far it’s easy to agree that, given exactly that $60k/yr, the difference in the outcome would be close to zero when pay times change. The average monthly balance shouldn’t change at all, let alone enough to make a multi-year difference to the program.
We’ll wait for your update, I appreciate the kind words.
NJ – funny, everything she says, agents dispute. She mentions to take taxes into account, agents say you should not spend $1 to get back 25 cents.
Carrie talks about not walking away from Matched 401(k) contributions. I had an agent ‘explain’ that $1 matched in the 401(k) is $2, but in MMA, it saves you $5.
Paying off one’s mortgage is a separate decision from whether to allow yourself to be scammed out of $3500. I’d like mine paid a year before my child goes to college, but that’s just my plan, others can do what they wish.
JT – Not sure how diverting 401-k contribs to MMA turns $1 into $5 (I cannot take credit for other agents’ theories, only my own lies, misstatements, deceit, outright fraud and HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE financial planning skills).
On the other hand, given the market’s performance since the 2000 top, some people are negative on their 401s including the match. Carrie & chuck – a “discount” version of Wall St’s skimming operation – would probably point out that the market’s run from 03-08 got people “back to even.” Yet investors’ statements ($ not %) suggest otherwise! Innumeracy or duplicity?!
Thus, MMA is clearly the answer to all financial questions! (kidding!)
Simple, really, and actually true, 1.06^30 = 5.75. So at the early part of the mortgage, first couple years, a dollar into MMA will save $5 at the backend. This ignores the time value of the 401(k) over that same period, but focuses on the payoff cells and interest paid.
My 08 balance exceeds 03, but only due to deposits, matching, debt repayment. 08 ended at 903.25 vs 03 1111.92 (S&P) down nearly 19% closer to breakeven with dividends.
But, another point I make, over and over, is that you cannot compare 401(k) returns to the mortgage rate. The choice is between a safe savings (Gov bonds, CDs, money market) and the mortgage prepayment. $1 to 401(k) would be about 75 cents out of pocket. $2, if matched 100% (3/4 of companies still matching some amount).
Go get disabled, and that $2 comes out with no penalty, and little tax if taken out a bit year by year. Not you, NJ, but any agent who says to fund MMA payoff prior to grabbing that matching money has no place in any financial discussion.
Have you really read that much into it before you based your comment, or is it just jealousy that fueled your comment? It’s like you think you know more than others that have put it into practice! Are you so cocksure that the financial institutions have YOUR best interest in mind when they have you sign a 30 year loan that will seriously crimpt your lifestyle? Or is it just ignorange shpowing it’s face? Do osome research. Are the banks leting you have their money?? When do you expect to pay off your mortgage. I my eyes, they are not trustworthy. And THEY ARE BEING BAILED OUT WITH YOUR TAX MONEY!! Did you stupidly sign over this money when you cast yopur vote??? I maintain that people don’t know what they are in for. This trend is continuing because of ignorant people who speakbefore they learn!
Scary! When I read prattle like this, I don’t wonder why MMA has had some success. No one says not to pay off your mortgage. That is a personal choice – reduced worry vs. greater return. There is nothing sinister about a 30-year or 20-year mortgage. You would know if you understood how mortgage payments are calculated. We are simply saying that if you are financially disciplined, all you need to do to pay off your mortgage is write an extra check each month. And if you want to mimic MMA, just send all the spare cash in your checkbook each month to your bank. And keep a HELOC around for emergencies. You’ll need it because you won’t have any spare cash.
Yes, I’ve read enough, written well over 60 pages of my own findings. I am no more jealous on MMA than of Madoff’s Clients’ extraordinary returns. I’m just hopeful this scam won’t take 20 years to come to light, I’m not getting younger.
Uh, no, the bank is not my spiritual advisor, they have no personal interest in me, just a financial relationship. My mortgage really has nothing to do with this conversation, but it never crimped my lifestyle since we did not take on a mortgage that was more than we could afford. But again, tangent to this discussion.
Are you RTL back posting as anon? Your ranting style is remarkably similar, and your signal to noise ratio equally low. I suggest you remove the speck from you eyes and read this entire thread, and before you spew trash again, respond to the number challenges.
I don’t need to research further, as I’ve seen enough. Actually, the more I see from UFirst, the worse the program looks.
You see, it started as an expensive egg timer (c)Calvin, but then it became clear that (A) The HELOC shuffle is not properly implemented, the UFirst video betrays that failure and I posted on it, catching them in that lie and (B) the software itself doesn’t seem agent friendly enough to allow the shift from bi-weekly to semi-monthly pay, while holding monthly expenses and annual income fixed.
The rest of your drivel is meaningless, you might want to finish high school before you embarrass yourself further.
Joe,
As much as I’d like to take credit for the egg timer description, it was not mine. And neither was a better, far better comparison. The magic “electricity saver stick” that one uses to turn off the lights when they leave a room. The stick, when used properly, could save a user tens of thousands in electricity bills by letting the user turn of the lights and stop needlessly wasting costly energy. No one can beat the stick.
cal
NJBlue82,
Any comments yet? I’ve lost track of how many agents in the 740+ posts in the comments here(and whoknows how many on other various sites) have promised a review only to never be heard from again.
>>Your point about a changing monthly expense
>>number seems excellent and I will review
>>your screens when time allows. This, like
>>JoeTax’s comments, advances the debate and I
>>appreciate it. Back soon.
Guess our friendly neighborhood scammy agent, NJBlue has disappeared. My guess is that he, like others, found the errors and realized the numbers don’t work out in the MMA’s favor, and quit posting. They never seem to admit they are wrong.
The numbers never work out for the MMA. It’s a money loser….unless you are selling it.
In most cases, it’s also a money loser if you *are* selling it. It’s harder to feel empathy for the agents, but many of them have been duped as well.
agreed. but at least if you are selling it, you *can* come out ahead. buying, you cannot. note: to anyone reading it, i am not endorsing the prospect of selling it, just pointing out the only winner involved in the sale of the UFF product is the UFF and the agent, never the buyer.
Still here Calvin. Have not had time to reply to your 7/14 9:22pm post. I clearly know far less about the legal system than you – wow, yet another of your many areas of expertise! – but I do know these five words:
Straw buyer / class action suit.
Unless of course, you can’t muster $3,500 in advance of the certain windfall. I just hope your friends at the Post Office agree with your screaming about MMA so you don’t have to “take the next step” with them.
NJB, Are you referring to this posts:
http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/2009/07/10/the-uff-money-merge-account-fraud/
and the fact that MMA software purposefully misrepresents their results for weekly and bi-weekly incomes, which constitutes fraud? Or the fact the UFF agents are too stupid to question the fact that you can’t have such dramatic differences in the results between a semi-monthly income and a bi-weekly income, even when the total monthly income is the same?
I’m not sure it does anything on purpose. Odds are, it’s just tough to enter it correctly.
I am more disturbed by the fact that most agents can’t tell there’s an error. (Yes, if they are flipping from one pay period to another they are stupid, but if they tried to enter bi-weekly and were given a bad result, I’ll blame the lack of user-friendliness on the system.) I wonder how many people are working off bad projections, as NJB did say that most of us are paid bi-weekly. (I’m actually paid paid bi-weakly, but that’s another story, and not a typo.)
NJ, I cannot buy the MMA software and win a lawsuit for two main reasons:
1) It is easily proven through my countless posts on the internet that I would “know this is a fraud in the first place”, therefore it would be my own fault for getting “scammed” and more importantly…..
2) I have no mortgage to apply the MMA software to. I paid off my mortgage using a faster method…..sending all my extra money right to the mortgage each month. Of course, the MMA does the same thing, they just charge you through the nose to do so.
When you realize the UFF software will never save more than the initial $3500 and the added interest, you’ll figure out your problem.
L2G, JT, JDG,
I have been considering your comments, doing further research and numbers crunching offline -as well as actually working for a living – and will cry “Uncle” tomorrow, conditionally (will explain that tomorrow).
NJB
Where have I seen this play out before? Oh yeah, every single effing time an agent actually crunches a number. Here’s how it will go:
You’ll admit that the results of a simple DIY approach are close to the MMA, and may beat the MMA in some situations (actually, it beats a free MMA for any scenario where the HELOC rate isn’t unrealistically low). You may admit that the MMA loses quite badly once the $3500 cost is factored in. Your “condition” will be that the DIY approach doesn’t factor in some sort of human element that the MMA does, as if spending $3500 for software will suddenly cause people to save their money.
There are many simple counter arguments to that one. My favourite is, if you charged them $10,000 your clients would have 3X the motivation to save! Others include the fact that the software is time-consuming, the $3500 wasted is hardly a good first step on a path toward saving, etc.
Let’s see if my prophesy comes to pass…
Uh, no.
Gentlemen (and others):
I had intended to “face the music” this evening with a blog post but my 16 month-old daughter, and her exhausted mother, had other plans. I want to be respectful of the time you folks have put into the educational process and regret that I must put my post off for another night. I have to go out later, to a Shaklee meeting (just kidding), and will be back on tomorrow sometime.
Have a nice night,
NJB82
credit where credit is due, that Shaklee line made me laugh.
Thanks, maybe you’re not as bad as your rants make you out to be, after all!
Uncle! I have seen the light.
As I said I would do, I am publicly accepting defeat on the MMA vs. DIY issue. On 7/10, I entered the Bargaineering site with the disclaimer that I was not a “Kool-Aid” drinker. That was something of an understatement as I have always been uncomfortable with the MMA price. I have sold a grand total of ONE (a family who asked me for a solution) and I offered it to the family I mentioned on 7/10 that needs to borrow to complete their second home. Based upon the input from you folks, my own additional research and some serious numbers crunching, I will also lead the second family to Debt Snowball and some good Excel calculators on vertex22 dot com. I actually picked the MMA fight – and lost – on 7/10 to draw out the objections I might not have considered and you guys did a really good job illuminating them! For that, I thank you. I could have done without the invective, notably absent from L2G and JoeTax (and for the most part Jimmy) whom I consider the best bloggers on this subject.
I know one of you will ask, so I’ll answer in advance: No, I’m not going to refund the purchase price or my huge, $450 commission to my lone MMA customer. The reason being, I called them on 7/21 and they like MMA, as is their right and I suspect, as many customer do. Their income is $390k and they identified $2,108 – I don’t know how people as busy and disorganized as they came up with the $8 part – as monthly discretionary income. He is in fact, paid semi-monthly so I did not have the dreaded “expense change glitch” situation to worry about. I told him that he could have done debt reduction himself, without software. His response may be instructive:
He said – and this is almost verbatim – “so what? I asked for a solution and you offered me one. My wife loves it. I pay $5,000 a year to have my lawn and garden taken care of and $8,000 to the same company at my office. I pay $75 a week for my wife’s nails, my CPA gets about $15,000 and my UBS guy gets $5,000 or so.”
And that leads me to the conditional part of my “Uncle:”
I am personally not going to offer MMA, and only had on the two occasions I referenced anyway, because I share your opinion that it is too expensive given its marginal utility. I do admit that a person can pay down debt themselves for far less money and perhaps, more easily than spending 20 minutes a month entering data into MMA. I disagree with you folks that MMA is a scam or a fraud. I think it is an expensive, good-looking way to eliminate debt; it works. It may not work to your liking but it will pay down people’s debts. Does the $3,500 keep people disciplined? No more than the $900 dust-laden treadmill in my basement has kept me disciplined. So it’s expensive and not necessarily as effective as DIY – so what?
On Wednesday, I paid $9.50 to have my car washed only reasonably well. I then gave $2 to the two shmoes who barely dried it. When I wash the car myself, it’s spotless and looks brand new; few people clean their cars as well as me. So unlike the refrigerator/icebox MMA metaphor that you guys trash, I KNEW the car wash was going to do an inferior job for a ridiculous price ($11.50 for nine minutes = $77/hour (please check my math on that JoeTax!). And I paid it anyway because I wanted the car moderately clean. My MMA client bought it because he likes it. Some people buy S65 AMG Mercedes for $198,000 instead of an S550 for $89,000: The S65 is surely no better-built and it only goes 0-60 1.2 seconds faster (with the same electonically-limited 155mph top speed). Should Mercedes be shut down for offering a car that provides 22% more value for over double the price? Of course not – that’s capitalism. Some people LIKE the S65 and they buy it.
As to the example in JT’s original challenge, I don’t think a $60k net income family with only $200 leftover would/should have a $200k mortgage and if I were to counsel them, I’d say something like, “DON’T buy MMA. In fact, don’t buy ANYTHING – you’re one or two paychecks from foreclosure as is! I do think U-1st ought to set minimum income and discretionary standards so agents cannot sell it to inappropriate prospects.
I would like to point out a comment that stuck with me, from L2G. A pro-MMA person blogged about MMA tracking and optimizing the payment for numerous debts and how DIY would be harder (probably an invalid assumption). L2G pointed out that if MMA cannot beat DIY for one debt (one mortgage), it probably should not be trusted to pay many. I confess to being enamored originally with the multiple-debt, frequency of income/cash flow thing. Yours was a good point, L2G and concise.
As for me, I never intended to be an MMA user. I have a mortgage because I want a mortgage. Home equity, as most of you know, earns 0% and can be – as we’ve seen with Helocs getting canceled – completely illiquid. And paying back cheaper dollars in an (the coming Government-induced) inflationary environment makes sense. I have 100% liquid funds, in an amount in excess of my mortgage balance, growing at an IRR of about 3% that will come out tax-free and I have no other debt because if I don’t feel comfortable writing a check for something, I don’t buy it. For some, not me, paying off a mortgage might make sense. So I’m a convert to your way of thinking: You guys win.
But while I will no longer offer MMA as a debt solution, I will neither join your crusade against it. I am a capitalist and if someone hears an honest MMA pitch/Mercedes pitch/absurdly-computerized LG washing machine pitch/etc. and likes it, it’s not unethical for the salesman to sell it. Chevrolet salesman are not required to tell people that Honda makes better cars for the same price.
Next, a critique of the critical…
Well, I was clearly wrong in my prediction. You did not try to defend the “self-discipline” claim of the MMA. To find this level of admission from a (former?) UFirst agent is rare indeed. Thank you for your honesty in comparing approaches.
As you are clearly capable of making the comparison, I’m curious why you did not do so sooner? Any google search for anything MMA-related turns up as many objections as it does sales pitches. Nothing twigged back then?
Also, you are still clinging to the “marginal value” claim, and while it’s the weakest claim used by UFirst agents, it’s one I still object to. I know, you’re shocked.
But seriously, comparing the value of an S65 to the value of the MMA? The S65 is claimed to be better than the S550, and it is, if only slightly in tangible areas (though Jeremy Clarkson would disagree with you). Where is the analogy to the MMA? Compare it to a genuine offering like Quicken or MS Money. The MMA isn’t better than either of those offerings. The MMA doesn’t have half the functionality, and as you’ve seen, can’t retire a debt faster. It’s not a case of paying for 2 S550s and getting one S65. It’s a case of paying for 35 S550s and getting a Lada. That’s deceit.
Dear NJB.
I truly apologize for any insults. I get frustrated when posters keep parroting what they have been taught without being able to prove anything they say beyond the explanations they learned. They have been coached to “drink the koolaid” so as to be more effective.
Contrary to others, I believe, because most people are financially undisciplined and innumerate, that MMA-like software is a solution for people that insist on having a babysitter remind them to stop spending money and to pay down their mortgage. I met people like that, that don’t want to think about what they have to do, except to be told do it. But that is only as a last resort, like bariatric bypass surgery for obese people.
I advocate do-it-yourself because what UFF agent is going to sit down with people and tell them that all they have to do is send money to the bank every month, or explain to them how to use the debt snowball so they can become debt-free and cash-rich on their own? Unless a UFF agent is a fee-only financial planner, who sells advice rather than products, and knows how to think for themselves, this will not happen.
No problem, Jimmy. Admire your passion but please see my new post for a general commentary on bloggers (not you specifically). Best, NJB
This is the email reply that I received from the UFF sales rep after I informed him I was declining enrollment.
I appreciate the email you sent, but hopefully you’re not basing your decision on that article. The guy that wrote that article obviously know’s nothing about our program. You know, there’s always going to be Nah-sayers about any product and it seems that the Internet has become the new “Bathroom Wall”. But every blog forum I’ve read online, the people saying negative things about UFirst haven’t really given it an honest look. But it’s always the same, about every third or fourth entry is from someone that is actually on the product and saying how great it really is.
I’ve told you from day one that this thing isn’t magic. There is no magic money that that mysteriously makes your mortgage balance drop. The only way to pay down mortgage principle is to send in extra money. The problem that the guy in that email doesn’t seem to realize is that in REAL LIFE… people just don’t do it. I receive a monthly mortgage newsletter that stated a few months back that 92% of all mortgages never receive $1 extra towards principle than is scheduled. The Money Merge Account and some of the other programs aren’t doing anything “magical”, but they’re getting people on a track that they will actually follow. It shows them exactly what to do, and when to do it. Could someone do it on their own??? Probably so, but sending in extra money to their mortgage is nothing new and how many people have been doing now?
But the fact is, the product works. There is a ton of financial creditability. Look at the articles in BrokerBanker Magazine, Mortgage Planner Magazine, Personal Real Estate Investor, the NBC News clip… hopefully your brother in law has had a chance to check those out. Edward Griffin (the author of “Creature from Jeckle Island”) is a huge supporter of UFirst. He is looked at as one of the most financially savy individuals in our country. I think I would trust the opinion of Ernst and Young before the guy in that link you sent me.
Here’s the thing, finances are about like religion, in that everyone has their own opinion of what’s best and everyone else is wrong! I’m not saying that UFirst is the only way to pay down a mortgage and get people on track financially, but it really is helping tens of thousands of people become debt free. I have personally put people on the program in past years that have complete paid off their mortgage. How can we tell those people that this thing doesn’t work???
I guess the question you really have to ask yourself is… do you think you can do better on your own than what the MMA program can do for you. If you think you can, then you’re right in taking a pass on this, but if you’re truly honest with yourself, I think you’d agree that this program will save you a ton more than you can do on your own.
Hope this makes you think a little more before making a decision on this. Having all your debt paid off in less than 10 years will be pretty hard to beat.
Sorry for the long email, but I look forward to your response.
John, there’s a lot there, but much of it is the same rhetoric we’ve addressed here dozens of times. The magazines are promotional, and the articles, subsidized. They are cover to cover ads, in other words. The one author he names is a guy I hadn’t heard of till UFirst started mentioning him, and I am an avid finance reader.
Finances are nothing like religion. I can sit with you, show you the numbers and unless you deny my starting premise, that 1+1=2, you will understand and agree with my every step. It’s how math is taught. You think you’ll ever say “Well, Joe you claim that $1 over 12 or so years at 6% (rule of 72) will double, and my Priest tell me it’s really 6 years, so we’re through here”?
He saw that 92% in a ‘newsletter’ so it must be true, right? Please, along with your August mortgage payment send an extra $10 toward principal. This will immediately put you in the other 8% who choose to prepay. Next month, take the $3500 you would have had stolen from you, and if (a) you have no credit card debt, (b) you are comfortable with your emergency fund, and (c) you are already depositing a fair amount into your 401(k) or retirement account, at least to get the match, if any, then send the $3500 to the mortgage, and do the math (see my spreadsheet, linked from my name above) to see how many months you just saved off the back end. My sheet offers a double your money back guarantee for your life (not just 30 days or the mortgage life). Can MMA offer that? I think not.
(The sheet is free, of course, no email or signup, or anything, just grab it).
Have you gotten an ‘analysis’ from this guy? Funny how it’s a 10 year payoff, just like their shady examples all over the web.
John,
Thank you for that post. Previous posts have addressed the lies regarding these vanity magazines and the E&Y award. I looked up Edward Griffin. If your UFF agent quotes him, run, unless you buy into this person’s POV. I didn’t spend much time reading everything, but Griffin rants about the Federal Reserve, which is a completely different discussion. Here is a link to Griffin’s statement written 2 years ago: http://www.thesolomonprinciple.org/docs/pdf/MMA-GEdwardGriffinArticle.pdf. What he says about finance no longer holds true, and he is talking from ignorance regarding the effectiveness of a HELOC. As we have posted over and over, the $3500 MMA costs destroys any advantage it might bring vs. doing it yourself.
NJB – you don’t need to help with the crusade. If all agents were as open minded as you, there would be none. There are overpriced everythings out there, but few would get this group going as MMA does. I’d not speak for the others, but for me it’s the combination of (a) innumerate people selling a quasi-financial product, (b) the outrageous claims made by those agents, (c) the insane comparisons.
If you want to know who makes me crazy, look at the rantings of “Real Truth in Lending” and the now canceled Jubilee (who posted some crazy claims, clearly having no idea how mortgage interest is calculated.)
You know, the 60K income $200K mortgage is not my example, it’s what UFirst has loaded on all their videos and written examples. I find that ratio to be less out of line than the claim that this example couple has $1000 extra every month to put toward their mortgage.
Last, I’ve had multiple agents respond to my matched 401(k) question telling me the money is better put toward the mortgage (I am repeating myself, no?) than the 401(k). This is disturbing for 2 reasons, agents are under the disclaimer that they are not financial advisers, and their advice is wrong, as you agree.
You are not typical, and not stupid. Next time I drive through Jersey, I’ll buy you a beer.
Joe
It is I who will buy, JT, for it is I who received the education. When you’re headed this way, shoot me an e-mail. Try not to hit one our corrupt politicians on the way; it’ll dent your car.
Great information site. Having been in the mortgage business as an originator for most of the last 12 years, I am now working on loan mod and loss mit files with a attorney I have know and trusted for years. I have been approached with the mma program and the cost is one thing that has slowed any real interest of mine. I have also looked at and read about Harj Gil and his program, which isn’t free but does cost less while still requiring a heloc to make it work. What do you or your readers think about the older existent program of a bi-weekly mortgage acceleration? I am considering this as a less expensive, at least with much less upfront costs to the buyer, as a tool to present to my loan mod clients who can turn their mortgages around.
Terr, if you truly know mortgages, then you know that there should be no upfront costs to set up a bi-weekly mortgage program. Why? Because this is easily mimicked by a client paying 1/12 of his monthly mortgage payment as extra principal. In fact, it should work out a little better, because the loan balance will be reduced each month, instead of having the extra principal sit in a bank’s escrow account for most of the year.
And if you really want to help your clients, teach them how to create and read an amortization table so they can motivate themselves to pay down their mortgage without having to pay for any software or program.
Terr – if the client can afford it, why not just put them into a 15 or 20 yr fixed?
I had a 30 yr mort as the 20 seemed tight, but 5 yrs later, rates dropped and I refied (paying down some principal, too) to a 20. Rates fell further and the last refi was to a 15, with payments lower than the original 30yr mortgage. Teach them they can make extra payments, $20, $100, $500, whatever they have beyond normal emergency fund. Prepaying costs nothing. And no software needed at all.
Dear No-MMA Crusaders,
At the risk of beating a dead horse, my “uncle” post ended with the line, “Next a critique of the critical.” I’d like to explain that, now that I have a few moments.
Some of you guys come off as kinda rage-filled and maybe it’s that you’re a bit burned out, given that you have the same MMA debates over and over. I bounced around some other sites and noticed that a few of you are blogging and crunching numbers on several sites! And perhaps for limited audiences. In the month I posted for instance, you debated me, TRTiL, Tom, Bill, Chris and Anon – six people! Maybe a lot of other people tuned in, did not post and were educated but that’s suspect. You have put in a lot of work and I believe your intentions are noble but guys – for the crankiest among you anyway – take a break! Perhaps you could blog in shifts, say Jimmy the first week, Calvin the second, Late the third, etc. It only takes one of you, not five! This would free the others up to (smell the roses and) tilt at bigger windmills. The United States may indeed fail one day – it seems to me to be headed that way – but it will not be because a bunch of people overpaid for mortgage elimination.
Altruism – good. Selective outrage – a bit less good. As a guy who owns the company and signs the paychecks, it occurs to me that unless each of you prolific MMA bloggers is self-employed or blogging exclusively from home after-hours, you’re stealing from your employer during the workday when you are blogging or reviewing MMA analyses. If you earn $100k per year, in only seven hours, you’ve swiped $3,500 worth of employment time from your boss. MMA might not work as well as DIY and it might be a bad value – like ten million other American products! – but selling an overpriced product for as much as the market will bear is part of capitalism; blogging on company time is theft. So for some of you, it may make sense to ratchet down the righteous indignation a bit.
The posting on public blog sites of U-1st agent names and rep numbers and in some cases, their uplines and downlines who have not picked a fight and may not even be interested in selling MMA anymore, should end. Not only is the act of “outing” agents classless, it smacks of the 3rd grade, tattle-tale who is still not getting enough attention. It demeans the good anti-MMA arguments that you guys are fully capable of winning on the merits. The reason I post anonymously is that I have no idea whether one of you guys – or some deranged reader – goes off the deep end and shoots me just because I offered two MMAs. Debunking the MMA sales pitch and calling agents out on misstatements and misconceptions, fair game. But when you accuse all agents of being crooks (and some surely are) and then name them, you’re setting up a potentially tragic situation. If I’d sold 100 MMAs before I came to Bargaineering, do my kids really deserve to be without a father because I was shot?! Gosh guys, UFF agents (but not me) are selling an overpriced product; not raping schoolchildren.
Along the same line, obtaining (or receiving) internal, proprietary company documents, if not outright theft, is pretty unseemly dontchathink? I find it ironic that the internal U-First master agent list is available on a high-minded website devoted to exposing scams and frauds.
In closing, it has been enlightening – and at times fun! – engaging you guys and cutting through the vituperation, enlightening. I appreciate the work you’ve put into your analyses and your dedication to informing the people who log on that there are other alternatives. My two cents – and worth both pennies! – is that some of you ought to tone it down a bit. And maybe take break from the No-MMA crusade at times. Best,
NJB
“If you earn $100k per year, in only seven hours, you’ve swiped $3,500 worth of employment time from your boss.”
Or $350 if you apply the math correctly.
“but selling an overpriced product for as much as the market will bear is part of capitalism;”
We don’t object to that, we object to the false advertising the UFF agents use. That is theft.
“blogging on company time is theft.”
My company, specifically, my boss, actually knows what I do. As long as he’s ok with it, I’m ok with it. I get a lot done, and have lots of “5 minute” waits while the computers crunch numbers. It’s not theft if it’s agreed upon beforehand. False advertising is always theft.
As for outing agents, I think you will find a lot of it is done to expose shills….those acting as “independent” supporters. As for someone shooting you, I can probably guarantee us anti-MMAers have received more threats than any UFF agent.
While I admire your crying “uncle” and admitting mistakes, it would appear you have missed the absolute most important problem with your past “transgressions.” It wasn’t the overpriced nature of your product, it was your words advertising the product were false. Charging too much for a piece of software is not problematic in and of itself. Doing so while making false claims is problematic, and, perhaps, illegal. I’m guessing you truly didn’t know any better, but that will not be the case.
I have dealt with literally 100′s of agents to this point. None could do all of the following:
1. Properly explain the system.
2. Tell the truth.
3. Do the math.
Some could do one or two of those, but not all three. That shows a systematic problem of the company, not one or two bad apples. And yes, we are getting breaks these days, as the UFF’s steam seems to have run out.
Doh! Good reply, Calvin. I really need to start doing my MMA math prior to 1am…
Is the “false claim” the performance overstatement that MMA makes when a rep inputs bi-weekly income instead of semi-monthly? If so, I totally agree with you and I am highly suspicious of whether this is a software “glitch” or an intentional sleight-of-hand. I don’t think I made any other false claims however, in my conversations with the two folks to whom I spoke about MMA.
And while I agree that MMA reps might be angry at the Anti-MMA Brigade, none can justifiably claim that any of you are dishonest in your disdain. Portraying MMA reps (some/most of whom are unaware of the glitch or who like me, have already been shown the light) as crooks to customers who paid 35-bones is a potential nightmare.
More troubling to me than expensive personal finance software is the fact that UFF is now trying to convert its MLM salesforce into an insurance agency. I attended one of the Kool-Aid meetings, saw my “fellow reps” and all I can say is: Yikes!
You’re not as bad a guy as some of your “passionate”
posts at times have made you seem. If you carpool into New Joisey with JT, I’ll buy both of you a couple pops. Best, NJB
I have no doubt I can come across as a “bad guy” to people sitting on the other side of the fence. I’m passionate about financial literacy in this country because it’s killing us, and I’m passionate about this product because they lied to my friend and tried to steal her money…..
“You’ll payoff your house 10 years early without an extra cent out of your pocket.”
That’s what they told her.
This goes WAY beyond a “software glitch” or “biweekly vs semimonthly.” We have agents talking about how this method is optimized…it isn’t. Some say it’s used by NASA, NSA, Harvard B-School, etc, etc. Not even close. Simply put, the UFF puts forth material that steps as far across the line of truth without actually putting their foot down, and the agents, mostly idiots, take it all the further.
“No changes in cash flow.” Couldn’t be more wrong.
“No changes in lifestlye.” Paying an extra $1000+ each and every month is no change? Do they think people are just throwing their extra cash each month out the window?
“The bank pays for the software….and your house.” Hello, attorney general, I’d like to report some fraud.
Then of course, there are the numbers. While yours were wrong, they pale in comparisons to some of the numbers other agents have put out there. There’s the lady that called Dave Ramsey during his show and tried to convince him that a 6% mortgage rate is really a 115% rate while a 6% HELOC was really close to zero. It’s a joke. Read enough and you will see why some of us call the agents what we do.
UFF agents are the epitome of the cult, kool aid drinkers, etc.
HI Sandy,
I am sorry you had a bad experience with this system. I am curious, what is the issue you are having or did an agent not qualify you right for it? I have to tell you , I have not seen hardly any clients on blogs saying they are not happy with it or it is not working for them, but a lot of competition or people that just like to talk to make themselves look good and like an advisor but are just opinions based on not being on the system themselves. I do not have 1 client that is complaining or not happy with what they are saving …out of over 50 clients on it for the last year or more so why is that I wonder to myself. Because it works very well and they are saving tons of money and years off their debt and mortgage. I can only go by the proof of my client’s testimonies , not the internet junk that is written about the product. The proof is there but i do know some people of other agents who just were not qualified correctly to make sure they would benefit from it and also were not trained properly on it so that is when people are not happy. What is your issue and why did it not work for you? The other reason people don’t like it is that they don’t use it or they don’t follow it so of course it won’t work for them or they lose their job……..that is not the company’s fault. I hope you get your money back if it is for a good reason, but if its on your part it did not work, then you don’t need your money back.
The proof is there….that the MMA is no more effective at paying off one’s mortgage versus just paying your extra money to your debt each month. In fact, it’s pretty much the same thing, but without the smoke and mirrors middleman loan. But that $3500 anchor kills any savings it could hope to create.
Most people are happy with it because they weren’t told they could do the same thing for free and outperform the MMA by $5k, $10k, $20k, or more, depending on their situation.
The MMA never comes out ahead….and it’s been mathematically proven so many times it’s pathetic people still fall for your BS.
You are really not getting it at all are you. I am in mortgage and I have the mortgage software to run my client’s scenarios with doing exactly what you said, paying extra payments on their own every month. I always do that with most of the potential clients that come to me and almost everytime, the MMA way out performs the “pay extra payments to my mortgage” scenario, both in much more interest saved and years to pay off so you are not stating the truth here at all and I prove it everyday to myself and my clients. Obviously you don’t understand the concept or how it really works at all. The system calculates strategic funds transfers when needed and to the exact amount …………not making the client pay extra to their mortgage every month. The proof is there with all the clients and they also have their bank print out an amortization schedule at the beginning of using the system and then months later and it shows exactly how many years they have taken off thier mortgage payoff and exactly how much interest they have saved with the MMA and then we match that with the scenario if they paid extra to their mortgage every single month and it does not come close in most cases. There are some cases where it is better for them to do that and it is almost the same, but most clients, about 90%, it is not the case at all.
I don’t think you sound like a mortgage broker or loan officer so you would not understand this at all and you would not know how to prove it works either by using mortgage software and doing the correct calculations so unless you do that you are pretty much clueless. math is math.
TRTiL,
If you can’t make an apples-to-apples comparison between an MMA analysis and a simple accelerated debt repayment plan, using the same debts, income and expenses, then you are incompetent.
The analysis has been done to death. All other things being equal, the MMA will slow debt repayment by about $3500 plus interest, over the life of the mortgage.
You can try to confuse the matter all you want, but the word is out, and monthly MMA sales are down 80% since the beginning of 2009.
Go find your next MLM scam. This one is all but done.
Craig
TRTiL, so nice to see your run-on paragraphs, making the same discredited claims with no proof again. There are a number of online storage sites where you could upload copies/pdfs of your reports and easily prove your statements.
The so-called rocket scientists that wrote this program also weren’t mortgage brokers. So either they didn’t know what they were doing or it doesn’t make a difference if math is math.
Can you create an amortization table and show us how you did it?
I am sorry you dont see the proof or listen to reason and just start saying things you don’t know anything about. It sounds like you are a very upset ex agent because you seem to know way too much about personal names in the company and certain things you say so i would not trust your words or judgement or listen to someone like you at all about anything this important in people’s lives. By your words below it is clear to me that you don’t know what you are talking about and have no proof. I do have the proof and the clients getting out of debt and that is all that counts. Sales are down because of the economy not because it does not work………..hello??? Financial crisis that affects people’s jobs and income and FEAR. Of course all sales are down in the nation on most products and services and companies going BK all over America so you are very lost. If it were a scam trust me, with a price like $3500, there would be thousands of complaints from all states and in Canada and the Consumer Affairs Dept would have it on recored and attorney general would be investigating them ,……….but go check it out, nothing like that is going on, no complaints with them at all or those agencies. So I am done trying to make you see reality. Have a nice day!
I don’t see your proof because it doesn’t exist. MMA CANNOT beat **FULL** prepayments because of it’s $3500 anchor. That’s been proven.
Put your money where you mouth is….
$200k, 6%, 30 year fixed rate mortgage…payment due on the 1st of each month
$5k *monthly* income after taxes, paid on the last of each month…
$1k expenses excluding mortgage payment, due the 25th of each month (paid by credit card).
$5k in the bank to start with, 3% checking account….
$50k HELOC, 6.5%, $0 balance to start with
You use MMA, I use checkbook.
I’ll happily put $10k in escrow, matched by your $10k, whoever pays off first takes all $20k minus escrow fee. **ALL** money movements have to be shown, we can verify each other’s math. (uff agent doing math…..
)
Now for the deafening sound of crickets….
crickets, baby……crickets!
Just another wall of text from TRTiL. Numbers, please. Start with Calvin’s challenge. Until you do that, you’re just another lying UFirst agent with a love of, but not an aptitude for, words.
RTL,
Your recent comments have managed to “get the band back togetha” as they might say in England. You have anti-MMA stalwarts Calvin, Craig, Jimmy and now JoeTax comin’ atcha – that’s basically the Anti-MMA Dream Team (L2G may be busy at the moment)!
My money is on them for the challenges. If you run a simple $1,000/month addition on a Vertex42 dot com spreadsheet against MMA with monthly or even semi-monthly pay frequency, you will see that MMA does slightly worse. There is a (fortuitous to UFF) glitch in the analysis software that makes Bi-weekly and Weekly look better b/c it reduces monthly expenses and applies the gain to debt reduction. Monthly expenses in the real world, do not change based upon pay frequency.
I picked a fight against the Dream Team to prove to myself that MMA worked (I’m an agent). Doh! It got bloody and I’m now on their side: If you’re saying that MMA helps pay off mortgages faster than doing nothing; you’re right. If you’re saying MMA works better than DIY, you’re wrong.
NJBlue82,
Is there really a glitch in the analysis software or is it a failure on agents’ parts to enter the income correctly? I’ve seen dozens, maybe over a hundred analysis reports and it seemed a common problem was the agent was incorrectly putting in the income. I’m not saying you were doing it wrong, I’m trying to find out if there was an actual error in their analysis software or not.
cal
Calvin – going into the software, I find that the entry is easily done wrong and tough to correct unless you wipe it out and start from the beginning. When done correctly, MMA will only lag do it yourself by a few months, only if you ignore the $3500 fee.
When MMA beats DIY by years, it’s obvious the agent has entered the numbers wrong. Well obvious to you you or me, just not the agent.
Calvin,
I input data a few times and the MMA results are valid for monthly and semi-monthly (and about what one could do if one sent the discretionary money to their mortgage company).
It’s when an agent inputs bi-weekly or weekly pay periods that things get a little screwy: MMA’s analysis screens default a reduction in the expenses and if I recall, does so even if the agent answers the “do you want the extra paychecks to go toward debt elimination?” box No.
Clearly, a family’s monthly expenses are what they are, regardless of how frequently their income arrives. In my opinion – and I have not run an analysis since I was soundly defeatedly in our July arguments – MMA’s performance is overstated for bi-weekly and weekly pay cycle families. Fortuitous glitch (for UFF) or just a glitch? Not sure about that one. Take care,
NJB
RTL – you’re back?
Going to answer the challenge that scared you off before? Or are you just here to practice your run-on unparagraphed rants?
What part of “My free for the downloading spreadsheet beats MMA” shall I explain for you to better understand? Show me your numbers, I’ll show you mine. Or do you plan to run away and hide another month?
By the way, why not answer this – How many people who net $5000/mo actually have an extra $1000 month in and month out? Of those, how many are still in the trouble MMA claims to solve? What an odd combination, if you think about it.
Hi guys,
I’m actually doing the MMA. I only have about $75 left at the end of each month so I couldn’t save enough each year to make an extra payment. I put the $3,500 for the program on my Heloc to get started. So far I’ve paid off $13,000 of principle on my mortgage and my Heloc Interest costs are only about $11 per month. I can afford that expense. My 14 year mortgage, $8,500 of other loans and the cost of the program will be paid off in 8.5 years. I can see the progress on my bank statements. The MMA works.
Well, Brian, you don’t have to make a full month’s payment, just a bit of extra principal, the $75 would have done nicely.
I’m happy that you’re so happy.
I just wish you were happy and $3500 richer by ‘not’ borrowing that $3500 in the first place. You could have used the HELOC to pay off the other higher interest debt and send the $75 to the HELOC until it was paid, then send it to the mortgage each month, but I know, that’s too easy.
Hi Joe,
Thank you for your very civil reponse. I know you feel strongly about what you believe so I appreciate your polite rejoinder. I think I understand your plan but if I sent the $3,500 towards mortgage principle and then the $75 per month to mortgage principle as you suggest, that would give me $4,400 towards principle the first year and then roughly $1,000 per year towards paying off my principle. That would take me six years to pay off $10,000 of principle. Using MMA I paid off that much in my first two months. If my financial situation stays the same that means I will only be paying $11 per month for 102 months, a total of $1,122 in Heloc interest to be rid of my whole debt. The mortgage interest cancelled by that $1,122 is a little more than $25,000. Your suggestion of early pay off is good but the MMA has accelerated my payoff in a way that is far more helpful to my financial long term health. Plus if I invest my mortgage payment at 1% after my mortgage is paid off I will have accumulated about $40,000 plus dollars between the time of my early pay off and what would have been my initial pay off date. I would have lost the opportunity to accumulate that money if not for the MMA.
Brian,
The math is very straightforward. The MMA cannot be doing what you are saying it’s doing. You either have more discretionary income than you think, or you are looking at the results incorrectly. I am more than happy to show you where your discrepency is, but it would mean putting some numbers out there (income, expenses, etc). If you only have $75 extra a month, the most the MMA can send to your mortgage is $75 a month plus a few dollars in interest, while the extra $3500 in debt generates and extra $10-$20 in interest alone, not to mention the extra principal owed.
I’m not trying to call you out or call you a liar, I’m just saying the math is saying your numbers can’t be right. Something is different from what you think it is. The most common one is bi-weekly income. If you are paid every two weeks, and you have $75 left over each month *that you get two paychecks*, then you have substantially more income since you have two paychecks unaccounted for in your $75/month. Just one thing it could be. We have run literally hundreds of simulations of this process. We know exactly what it’s doing. It never wins with the $3500 anchor, and rarely wins without it.
Calvin
Brian,
You wrote “Using MMA I paid off that much ($10K?) in my first two months.”
Look at it from a ‘balance sheet’ perspective. In the first second you purchased this, your balance sheet dropped by $3500. The fact that it saved you future interest is an obfuscation purposely shown by agents to divert you from that fact. It is easily canceled by the future interest on the $3500 owed in the HELOC.
With no numbers, I’ll assume 6% HELOC. It will take 53 months to pay off the $3500 with your extra $75/mo. 4 years of your money just to get back to break even.
Besides my civility, I hope you notice I do my best to stick to numbers.
Add up all your debt right now, the last statements for Mortgage, HELOC, CC. How much less is it than the day before you bought MMA (and when was that?)
Joe
Hi guys,
Here is what happened my first month. The program told me to pay off $10 K out of my heloc to my mortgage principle. Then it instructed me to put all my income into the heloc as a principle payment. That suppressed my average daily balance significantly and with a heloc its the average daily balance which dictates my interest payment. My actual figures are at home so I’m doing this from memory. My initial average daily balance for the heloc was about $6,000, the interest rate was 2.5% and the first monthly payment was $11.22. So, I borrowed $10 K on my heloc, paid interest on only $6K, and got to use $4k basically interest free. My $75 per month positive cash flow continues to drive down my average daily balance. When my ADB gets to a certain tipping point the program instructs me hit up my heloc again and pay off principle on my mortgage. By doing this again and again the mortgage/debt payback is accelerated. I will admit to not being a financial wizard, but the concept makes sense to me and it is certainly working for me. I can see it in my bank statements. The mortgage principle is down 10K and all the front loaded interest has gone with it.
Ok. At a rate of 2.5% on the HELOC, the shuffle can save you some money, I get that. On a 6% mortgage, the 3.5% savings is nearly $300/yr after taxes, good. But –
(a) you could do this on your own, and work from a HELOC instead of maintaining a checking balance.
(b) you could choose your own comfort level, why not use $30,000 HELOC draw? It seems that when the HELOC rate is below the mortgage rate, the MMA software doesn’t know what to do.
(c) my agreement that HELOC use helps you a bit notwithstanding, you realize there’s risk associated with that type of account, it’s a lien on your home. $50K in CC debt, no problem, they can try to collect. $5K on HELOC, you can get foreclosed on.
(d) don’t confuse “daily balance” accounting with borrowing interest free. I read an MMA endorsement, guy borrows $20K on June 29th, and is amazed how the interest was pennies, based on a June 30th statement date. HELOC is calculated on daily balance, so you pay the full rate on money you owe each day. The shuffle lets you “earn” 2.5% on your cash flow instead of the 0% you’d get in checking.
All well and good, but all the savings don’t add to enough to fund the MMA fee of $3500. I’ve done the math many times and proven MMA cannot beat DIY. Ever.
Hi Joe,
I do use the Heloc as a checking account now. I don’t know all the math behind it but I assume that there is a tipping point as to how much to use out of a heloc to apply towards mortgage. If I take out too much I end up paying too much towards interest on the heloc. If I don’t take enough on the heloc I don’t maximize my repayment time. Again, I don’t know the math on that one. I do realize the risk of using a heloc and have other assets to cover if need arises. I agree a DIY approach will probably save money but I would have to be really good with math. I’m not. What is really nice with the MMA is that I’m online about 5 minutes per week. I have a sound plan for getting out of debt quickly. I might have spent $3,500 but my total interest savings will be between $25,000 and $35,000 over the life of my mortgage. (I did a best case and worse case (hopefully) scenario. What I got for the money was a solid plan that changes in real time with my financial situation. It’s easy, it’s accurate, the service from the company after the sale has been terrific and for the 95% of us who aren’t as good with the math as you are, and I say that sincerely, it gets us out of debt quickly. I really like using the program. It’s motivational and it has done exactly what my agent told me it would do.
Be happy and avoid anti-MMA posts. You bought the program, and are happy with it.
My mission is to talk to people before the sale. My message is simple, “at the end of each month, send your extra money to the mortgage, marked as principal.” repeat.
It’s far more than 95%, I’m the guy who aced the Math SATs in high school. I didn’t play football, but got an A in gym as I tutored the players to keep their grades high enough to keep playing.
But – there’s no math to do this, well, maybe just adding that bit to the check, but anyone can add with a calculator, right? MMA agents are trained to convince you that the math is beyond you. My secret? There is no math.
Hello Joe,
I’ve NOT read all 801 comments here, but I have read several of yours.
I too aced the Math SATs in high school, for what ever that is worth.
I’ve done a ton of investigation on this MMA thing and built an Amortization Table with the ability to add additional money to the monthly mortgage payment to see how it would compare.
You are right, IF, and this is a HUGE/BIG if, you pay $200 additionally each and every month for 21.1 years, you will beat the MMA, which including the $3,500 fee, comes out at 21.4 years. If you miss on average one $200 extra payment per year, its dead even, so probably throw Christmas gifts out each year and use the $200 for your mortgage – NOT!
So if you have THAT kind of discipline, have at it, but we all know that * LIFE * gets in the way, the car breaks down, a kid gets sick, the A/C goes out, etc. and you DON’T make that extra $200 for a month, then the feeling is that next month to catch up you REALLY should do $400 that you DON’T have so you don’t do it then either, and just like going to the gym every day, then miss a day, then well I missed yesterday I’ll start back next week, and before you know it, you’ve NOT been back at all. Same thing happens with the “I’ll pay $200 extra a month” scenario and over 98% of those who start that discipline abandon it wihtin the first year.
With the MMA system, at least it will get you back on track, unless you fully abandon the software as well, in which case, its not the software’s fault, it was trying and recalculating to keep you on track.
Even though the $200 scenario shows it beating the MMA, I’ve run dozens of scenarios where it DIDN’T, and if you add in other debts such as auto loans and a couple credit cards, it DOES almost become impossible for you to figure out how much and when additional amounts should go to each debt. And who JUST has a mortgage these days without ANY other debt as well? Almost nobody.
One last thing, the “I’ll pay an extra $200 a month” plan does not leave you liquid, it uses most available cash to do so, and in the case of an emergency, you can’t just go back to the bank and say, “I’ve paid an extra $2,400 last year and could use it, would you kindly give it back?” They’d say, sure, just take out another loan, which just increased your monthly expenses and your debt load.
Feel free to watch my video series at
NeverRefi dot com / stnick
Nick -
MMA assumes the extra funds are available as well, of course it only works with the money the user has. If my user (of my free spreadsheet, or of nothing) does have the $200 one month, neither does the MMA user.
The reliance on an equity line as emergency fund doesn’t require MMA, anyone can do this. To be sure, it’s not recommended either way, but there’s no magic to the MMA user having that available.
Congrats on the SAT, if that’s the case. Usually those who do that have a certain personality, a bit more black and white, and a bit too logical, almost to a fault. We usually don’t fall for nonsense like this.
By the way, the user with all the other debt should focus on paying that debt off, highest rate first. It makes little sense to throw $3500 to this software when the algorithm is so simple. “Pay all account’s minimums, and send any extra funds to the highest interest rate debt.”
You do get points for your paragraphs, though. We find many agents going off on incoherent rants with no structure. Your points are well presented, even though I dispute the validity of each and every one.
I’ll pass on the video. Why not read my 60 page PDF of all my own posts, and come back with numbers. An example of when MMA actually is better.
St. Nick,
(Merry Christmas. I’ve been good – can I have a Bentley now?)
Another option is Excel, some cool examples of which are at vertex42 dot com. Look under Extra Payments. You could charge clients $350/year to manage the process and they’d be ahead by a few years and a few hundred bucks over MMA. Just sayin’.
Your first assumption that is in error is that its ONLY about extra funds, its not, it has a lot to do with cash flow.
Second, working directly with Loan Officers of a major bank has published statistics that people with a HELOC will default only 15% of the time versus people with NO HELOC. Most people don’t have a HELOC till we teach them about getting one and showing them the advantage of having it. And EVERYONE is correct, you don’t have to have the MMA program to have a HELOC, but its amazing the number of people who don’t until we teach them about having it and how to use it to their advantage.
As for an example where the MMA beats the “pay additional per month scenario”, drum roll please, $175,000 house, loan amount of $164,000 at 7.20% interest, only $50 “extra” that could be used to prepay against the principle.
Let me know what you get, and then I’ll publish the MMA “conservative” analysis numbers, no funny business with semi-monthly/bi-weekly incomes etc.
One last thing, yes, there are several “excel spreadsheets” that are free, I built one and you and others here have one. How many people do you have working for you to promote your free spreadsheet? 10, 50, 100, 1000? Its not a crime in America to charge for software AND education. What does work VERY well in America is profits, and if a company provides a valid technology, customer support, and education worth the price and said company RICHLY rewards its agents for promoting and selling said technology, education, and support, where’s the rub?
So your free spreadsheet saved (and maybe even cost) 100 customers or so, we have over 80,000 people receiving the benefits of our system. With over $1.1 billion saved in interest already, how much interest have your efforts saved?
“I agree a DIY approach will probably save money but I would have to be really good with math.”
You were told this, but it isn’t true. When your HELOC rate is lower than your mortgage rate, the optimal amount is “as much as possible”, though as Joe correctly pointed out, the bigger the number, the bigger the risk. When it is more than your mortgage rate, it’s equal to your monthly income the first month, and your discretionary income after that. That’s it. The funny thing is the MMA software doesn’t ever seem to use the optimal amounts.
If Joe is right in estimating your savings at $300/yr, that means you have a minimum of 12 years until you’ve paid for the software with your savings, and that ignores the interest on the additional $3500, which you carry until the mortgage is paid off….probably adding another few years to your break even date. 12 years for principal, plus another few for added interest, for many users, the break even never happens because you would pay off the house before breaking even with what you could have done easily on your own.
As Joe said, you like it, so be happy with what you don’t know. Just please don’t recommend putting others into the same system when just a minimal amount of information will give them a free and better alternative. Handing over your finances to a black box is not a good thing.
calvin
So you were one of those math guys in high school. I was the football player. You math guys seemed a little geeky then but I truly appreciate the abilites you have now. When I went through the MMA figures I thought that if MMA cut over four months off my repayment time compared to what I could do myself I would save money. My monthly mortgage is just less than $900. The MMA program is cutting off at least 24 months and I’m sure it’s more than that compared with what would happen if I did my own pay down. I know that’s a simple way for a simple football player to look at it, but leveraging the banks money through a heloc will more than help me recoop the $3,500 start up fee.
Fair enough, not to mention you guys got the girls.
All I’d suggest to you now is that if you have an employer who offers any match on your 401(k), take it, don’t miss a dime of match to prepay a mortgage. And don’t pay a dime of high interest credit card debt to pay the mortgage. I wish you well, I hope your knees still work.
Hi Brian,
What happened to that $8500 loan? Did MMA tell you to write a check from the HELOC to pay it off? What is its interest rate and monthly payment?
One of the tricks that MMA uses is to pay off any outstanding debt you have using the HELOC and “steal” that monthly payment to pay off your mortgage. You magically have extra money to pay down your mortgage while the HELOC balance isn’t paid off as fast as it ought to be.
Nick – the answer to your numbers is 312 months.
Given the balance and rate, a $50 prepayment will shorten the mortgage to 312 months, with a final payment of about $767 in mo 313.
By adding the $3500 to that $164K, the payment goes up of course, leaving only $26.24 as extra funds. This produces a payoff of 333 months, a 20 month hit, which of course gets reduced a bit closer to my original 312, but never quite so much.
Let us know what you show, and what assumptions you made. I appreciate you understand that most agents will suddenly pull out the fact that the client has a $500/mo credit card payment that’s now going to their mortgage. Let’s stay apples to apples.
Okay Joe, here’s the numbers the MMA Analysis has for the EXACT same scenario as above.
I came up with the exact same numbers in my spreadsheet of the 312 month and $766.49 in month 313 final month. Savings of $37,063.12 and cutting 47 months off of their mortgage.
I even took it one step further and said they had the $3500 in savings and applied that plus the $50 in month #1, reducing payoff to 295 months and savings them $54,987.97.
The MMA Analysis came in at a total savings of $100,214.42 beating even the $55k by $45,226.45 as well as having them paid off in month 208 or 17.4 years beating the “add money scenario” by 7.7 years of payments they will NEVER have to pay. This is a “real” scenario that I ran for a client, and the company guarantees the results.
So the MMA does beat the “add money” scenario and not by just a smidge, but by a very significant margin.
You didn’t answer my previous questions of how many people are “actually” on your spreadsheet plan and how much interest have you saved them?
And if your plan is really better, why do you keep taking my website link out of my name? Do you have something to fear of someone going to it and learning more about our system?
Nicholas,
Before we compare the “Analysis” you ran with any other scenario, you will need to post all (and I mean ALL) other assumptions and variables you are entering into the MMA Analysis (Mortgage rate/term, HELOC rate/term, where MMA is paid from, paid in full or financed, income gross/net, creditors, banking, etc.) Then an apples to apples comparison can be made.
My guess is you included additional creditors, which after being paid off, or rolled into the HELOC, will actually result in a larger discretionary income per month than you reported.
You do know that the Analysis you run in the Agent Portal is not actually the “Money Merge Account”? It is just an estimate of how the actual MMA will perform, but may not match the initial “Analysis” after actual money movements as directed by the MMA.
I don’t even know how well I trust the “Analysis” either. I have run a few scenarios where the only difference was whether to pay for the MMA in full (ie from a savings account) or finance it ($250 down, $95.47/month for 48 months) and the total “Ineterest Paid” ammount was reported to be LESS than paying in full!
L2G -
I understand how financing MMA reduces total cost. It results in that $95.47 being available as an extra payment to principal after the 4 years. Same as how the agents love when there’s a credit card with a few hundred dollar per month payment. I sent Nick a request through his web site requesting a copy of the analysis. Also find his number curious as the classic scenario is $200k 6%. Why he offered the numbers he did, I don’t know, but if $50 results in a 17.4 yr payoff, one can only wonder what he’d offer for $0 extra or $1000 extra.
By the way, the regular payment is $1113.21, and if Nick’s payoff is 17.4 yrs, or 12.6 yrs early, that’s $168,317 saved, not the lower number he offers. Either way, not enough info, of course.
I gave you the scenario which is an actual real scenario of a client, that’s why I didn’t use the $200k 6% $1,000 discretionary scenario.
There was NO funny business and I’m NOT sure what you’re upset with.
Your statement is that DIY will beat the MMA every time. THAT is an incorrect statement as I just proved and I’ve run several scenarios that it didn’t.
Its not my fault nor is it the fault of the MMA program that it better utilizes ALL of someone’s income. If that bothers you, then too bad.
I’ve admitted that there are scenarios where if in theory a person stays on a DIY plan that can and will beat the MMA.
Can you NOT admit that the MMA can and does take advantage of ALL their income, including 2 extra paychecks per year when getting paid bi-weekly?
L2G – accusing me of fudging the numbers to “win” by adding in a credit card that I didn’t reveal is just being nasty. I’m NOT a liar and I ran the MMA Analysis just as I said I did.
I typically DON’T add in ANY other debts as we all know that the MMA Analysis only gets better when you do.
Joe – You are correct, the $168,317 is higher because that is the 12.6 years worth of $1,113.21 per month, the number I gave was the “saved interest” which is what the MMA Analysis predicted, so I do understand the difference.
To put everyone at ease, I did do a “like the MMA does” scenario where I borrowed $4,300 from the HELOC in month 1, assumed they put all their income back into the HELOC, added in an extra $1,100 in month 6 and 12 as additional payments. At $50 monthly “discretionary” income, it will take 86 months to pay off the borrowed $4,300 in the HELOC so every 86 months I re-borrowed $4,300 and applied it to the primary mortgage. Running this theoretical DIY scenario, it will beat the $100k saved in the MMA analysis.
But it brings us back to the “theory” versus “reality” and the odds will always be in the MMA favor for reality as its a week by week and month by month guidance system to keep you on track.
I’ll be glad to send you “ALL” of the input information, but then your simple DIY gets into a more complex scenario that will leave the average home owner lost and confused which is EXACTLY the point of using the United First Financial’s Money Merge Account.
And wishing everyone a Happy Thanksgiving!
I wish you a Happy and Healthy Thanksgiving as well.
I got the PDF (thanks) and can tell you, with an assigned payment of $1476.23, there’s most of the difference, as the current payment is $1107.79. Where did the $368.44 come from?
If you would look at the Money Merge Account amortization chart, you’ll see that the total paid in year one divides to $1466.30 per month.
Also, the analysis shows $1,000 semi monthly plus $1150 bi-weekly. Total $4300.
But – $1150 * 26 = $29,900, plus the $24,000 for a total $53,900. This is $4,491.67 per month, not $4300. I have no issue with how MMA grabs every cent available, but that was $191.67 I didn’t have available, as you stated only $50/mo.
The truth is, the $3500 cannot be made up by the HELOC shuffle savings, and the honest value in the program is (a) the revelation to people that one can prepay their mortgage principal and (b) the instant feedback that when you throw $X at the mortgage today, you cut Y days off the back end. There is no complex scenario. Multiple debts should be paid highest rate first, after all minimum payments are made. This concept is either worth $0 or thousands, depending who is marketing it.
I saw from your profile that you served in the armed forces. You have my undying respect and gratitude for that. We are all in your debt.
JoeT,
This was the case when UFirst Agents computed “Analyses” using the older UTracker software. The discretionary income they entered was independent of any other option used. It was up to the Agent to remember to subtract financing payments from the user’s disc. income for a more accurate analysis.
BUT, the newer “Analyses” generated through the agentportal explicitly state that financed options will be subtracted from the entered discretionary income. So paying in full (from a checking/savings account) should result in less interest paid than a financed option. It doesn’t report that happening in every case, but enough to make me question the code used to generate the Analyses.
Nick – that’s fantastic. Of course, in the original meaning of the word which was “existing only in imagination.”
For those playing the home game, let me explain why. The original payment is $1113 (i am dropping the cents for simplicity), a 17.4 yr payoff needs a payment of $1368 or $255 extra per month. I’ve conceded that the “HELOC shuffle” can produce some savings, but with a $5000/mo income, the best average you’d float would be $5K, times your 7% or about $350/yr. And the first ten years of that savings is used to pay the $3500 software fee.
$3000/yr saving from this? Only if your client is making about $50,000/mo in which case they don’t need you or me. The other possibility is that you entered the income incorrectly, as bi-weekly and not semimonthly. When I pointed that out to another agent, and had a series of emails, he admitted, as a gentleman, that in fact I was correct.
My sheet has been downloaded just over 6,000 times, but that’s meaningless. You’re bragging about having 50 thousand agents ripping people off, against one part time blogger?
This is not my web site. I have no idea where your links are.
You can send me a copy of the analysis through my name link above, I’d really like to see it.
By just Nicks’s and Joe’s comments, I immediately noticed the 2 most common MMA agent tactics:
1. The bi-weekly 2 extra payments trick where you treat it as if you’re paid twice a month and conveniently apply the 2 extra paychecks to the mortgage (usually 1 every 6 months).
2. The “I’m using the whole 1st month salary to the mortgage” trick. You put in the whole salary to the mortgage (directly or indirectly through HELOC) as if you did not have any expense that month (or your expenses lagged 1 month). The whole 1st month salary goes to the mortgage and the real salary/expense cycle starts in month 2.
If you mean “MMA agent tactics” should read “MMA agent tricks”, then being accused again of doing something underhanded is not my style and if you’d read my previous posts you’d realize that.
About 1.) I was up front and honest when I showed that the DIY with a bit more complexity of using the HELOC and applying those “extra” payments on months 6 and 12 show that I do indeed understand the math and everyone is right, its not magic.
My question is: “Is it a sin, crime, or ripoff if the MMA utilizes those extra paychecks when in real life no one is thinking ‘Wow, an extra paycheck, let’s put that 100% towards our principle in the mortgage Honey!’?
So again we are back to a “theoretical” vs a “real” scenario, and the “real” scenario will invariably utilize more of that “extra” check than 95% of homeowners without a “system” that will help them do so.
As for 2.) whether I used their entire salary in month 1 versus month 2 you should know can’t possibly make THAT big of a difference in the overall scheme, so why grasp at straws?
JoeT, so is the difference the typical bi-weekly assumption?
Nick,
I wasn’t accusing you of fudging any numbers, nor calling you a liar. I don’t know where you got that assumption. I was just merely taking a stab at what the difference between your “Analysis” and JoeT’s numbers. I would like to see ALL the inputs you used, if you wouldn’t mind posting them. Only then can we truly make a correct comparison to someone using a Do-It-Yourself method.
L2G – that accounts for most of it. If he would start from scratch, entering all income as bi-monthly, it would help up get closer to the bottom line. As you know, this is the most common issue. Second seems to be how the $3500 is paid. Third is what assumption is made for current saving/checking balance.
In this scenario, it’s also a ‘got ya’ that since it’s a real analysis, it doesn’t run the full 360 months, it was started part way into the mortgage.
The bottom line – the ‘classic scenario’ and my sheet differ by a few months. MMA just misses being able to fund itself. Any time an agent offers a result that differs from mine by more than a few months either way, there is no doubt it’s an entry error. Either the agent mis-entered income or I wasn’t made aware of some asset being applied on day 1.
If you think about it, the agents should all take my sheet and use it to double check for gross errors. When MMA beats me by years, you’d think they’d want to double check their entries. When a radar gun tell you you pitched a ball at 275 MPH, you don’t brag, you calibrate the gun.
“When a radar gun tell you you pitched a ball at 275 MPH, you don’t brag, you calibrate the gun.” Great line! And you’ve had quite a few over who knows howmany websites, forums, and blogs.
Thanks for the clarification.
L2G – It would be better if you did own up to an accusation if indeed it is. Making an assumption that I had to have added in a credit card that I didn’t tell you about is the accusation, which was not part of the DIY scenario, again using the “rules” the DIY was to play under. That’s why I feel you were unjustly accusing me of trying to fix the numbers to show the MMA would win.
JoeT – When I ask someone what they have left over at the end of the month, no one includes 2 extra bi-weekly paychecks, EVER!
Its still a reality and the MMA system WILL utilize it as best it can. We all know its there, no one is hiding it, but in reality without a system calculating it into the scenario, people simply aren’t going to put the whole thing towards their primary mortgage and if your DIY theory says they will, a reality check is certainly in order.
And without that “extra” $1,100 every six months, there’s no way the DIY people will have a snowball’s chance of beating the “real” MMA program. You can’t just multiply it by 26 and divide by 12, the cash flow simply doesn’t work that way and you of all people should know that.
As for the “extra” $368 or so, it wasn’t figured in the calculations AT ALL, as it is the escrow.
In reality, if I can get the client to stop sending it to the bank where it benefits the bank and instead deposit (aka leave) in the HELOC, then it becomes very useful in cancelling interest and the MMA system can utilize it for several months.
I’m not sure how you’d add that into the DIY scenario as it now adds another complex element that the “simply add discretionary income to the mortgage payment each month” scenario that got this whole discussion going in the first place.
Also JoeT, I did initially run the scenario starting in month 14 for the DIY, but it doesn’t save as much as if starting in month 1, so again I was trying to give the DIY every advantage.
As for recalibrating the radar gun, this gun needs no calibration, the scenario was reported to you given your guidelines and the company is willing to back the 275 mpg fast ball with a 100% money back guarantee.
I have my own spreadsheet and its proven to be as accurate as yours. The MMA simply isn’t broken nor misleading.
I’d like for anyone to go and find me someone using the system (as it was designed and prompting the client) who did not meet or exceed the MMA Analysis.
If our radar gun is broken by that much, then it shouldn’t be too hard to find such a person.
Its still all “DIY theory” versus “MMA system reality” and the bottom line seems to be that for all the people the MMA has ripped off or scammed, its barely a blip on the radar for those that are dissatisfied with the technology.
If we gave this technology away, would everyone be happy? It seems to be the $3,500 burr under the saddle that is most irritating.
As I’ve said before, unless we are in fact ripping people off, and the client ISN’T realizing many times over the price as a value they are satisfied with, then what concern is it to anyone, really?
Shouldn’t someone be yelling and screaming about NOT refinancing every 3 to 7 years, adding in those points and repaying all that interest over again?
I’ve seen the refinancing scenario WASTE $6k, $15k, and even $40k or more. That I’d think would bother you more than someone investing $3,500 and reaping 10x, 20x, or 50x in return.
Nick, in the analysis you sent me, the first year total payments differ by $4302, or $358 per month. I have no issue with using the ’13th’ month of pay to apply to the mortgage, but that’s not how you reported the scenario to me. You said there was $50/mo extra. If I can use all $358/mo, my sheet ends the mortgage in month 185, or 15.4 yrs, easily beating your numbers above.
I understand that people paid $1000/wk may report their income as $4000/mo, but we both know that the extra $333/mo that comes from a $52k/yr salary is not through the magic of MMA.
What I seek is the apples to apples comparison, which shows that MMA lags DIY by a number of months. Any analysis showing MMA winning is likely to be an input error.
No, MMA shouldn’t be free, as the software is flawed. DIY beats it even when I agree to let the agent use $3500 from savings to pay it upfront.
I think using the 2 extra paychecks to pay down the mortgage and then say that those not using the software will not know to send that to the mortgage or that those using a spreadsheet will not know how to add that extra payment in the spreadsheet…and then claiming that because of this reason alone the MMA software will save the user $45K more over DIY is A LOT WORSE and DEFINITELY MORE DECEPTIVE than Late2Game’s statement of adding some credit card somewhere. Talk about apples to oranges.
I don’t have a problem when you say that the software can influence discipline and positive financial behavior. But you cannot turn around and say that those who do not use the software will not know what to do with extra money and instead waste them or that they wouldn’t know how to enter additional payments to a spreadsheet. What part of “send whatever is left every month to your mortgage” is hard to comprehend, whether it’s $50 or an extra paycheck of $1150? And then you’ll claim that the $45k savings was due to the software’s HELOC shuffle algorithm when it came from their extra paychecks, knowing that the HELOC shuffle literally contributed only a couple of cents for ever dollar saved.
You posted this in fatwallet: “Definition of scam is: swindle or fraudulent scheme or deceptive act.” That is what most posts there mean when they say this is a scam, when MMA agents and supporters deceive the buyers by attributing the savings to the software and the HELOC shuffle when 98% of the savings came from their own money that was used to pre-pay the mortgage.
Joetaxpayer said:
“No, MMA shouldn’t be free, as the software is flawed. DIY beats it even when I agree to let the agent use $3500 from savings to pay it upfront.”
That’s also my experience exactly. I refer Nick to what I believe is the most entertaining conversation ever about the MMA – between a group of UFirst agents and myself:
http://scam.com/showthread.php?t=46373
In that sample analysis, the UFirst agent and I showed that the example MMA client should be refunded the entire $3500 purchase price, plus be given an additional $2000 to make up for the inefficiencies of the MMA.
This is Mrs. Hugh a.k.a. the one who can’t say NO. One thing my husband neglected to tell you was that when he was making between $80,000 – $100,000 a year for over 6 years he didn’t have the self discipline to put any extra money down on his mortgage. His home should have been paid off considering the money he WAS making at the time. As a matter of fact he used to take out home equity loans to travel. This was before I knew him and we got married. He also hadn’t paid his taxes for 3 years running. Ask him what the simple math was on the interest he owned on those back taxes. Of course he was quite upset about having to pay interest considering it was his own fault. He does not understand the program at all and does not have the patience no open mindedness to even try to understand it. He thinks I am crazy because I want to save “US” $100,000 in interest and 10 years in mortgage / interest payments. I am very happy with the MMA program and he will be to when the money is in our pockets at the end and NOT the banks. So when someone says ” I don’t need a computer program to tell me when to put extra money down on my mortgage” just remember you are only hearing about 1/3 of the macho story. RLT, keep up the good work and trying to help people. Clearly some people believe their own B.S.
Sincerely, Mrs. Hugh
Mrs Hughs -
How will using MMA keep you husband from writing checks out of the HELOC to continue the path he is on? His issue is his own irresponsibility, not the mortgage plan he is on. You know, MMA won’t pay your taxes for you.
You mortgage may be the smallest part of your financial issues.
Dear Joetaxpayer;
By the way it is Mrs. Hugh, not plural. I am quite aware that MMA will not pay HIS taxes for him however most people need something to answer to to keep them on the path of discipline. I am one of those people as well as Hugh. He will not be writing cheques on OUR HELOC as he tried that once and failed terribly. Our financial issues have been settled.
I am glad for Hugh. Really. Some people find peace in their religion, others are atheists. Some find peace throwing $3500 away. If this software brings that discipline to you, that’s great. The fact that it can cost one as much as $20,000 over the life of one’s mortgage should be put aside, as there is no price that can be put on happiness.
JoeT – what good could it POSSIBLY do to tell someone that they have thrown away $3,500 on the MMA program???
Are you just trying to be cruel?
And if you think that the $3,500 financed could ever reach $20,000 in interest to pay off, your spreadsheet needs to be recalibrated!
Yes I know your going to say she could have put it towards her mortgage and it could have saved her an additional $20k, but that’s NOT the way the MMA program works and I’ve run that scenario in MY spreadsheet and in reality the MMA STILL beats the DIY.
It’s just YOUR OPINION that she has thrown away $3,500, it will be up to her to decide after using the software for a few years if your opinion was right or not.
So please quit saying that, you don’t get to decide for every American with a loan whether getting onto the MMA program is throwing away ANY money. Its simply not your place.
Can you give your opinion that going the DIY route could be better than the MMA route, sure, its America.
“And if you think that the $3,500 financed could ever reach $20,000 in interest to pay off, your spreadsheet needs to be recalibrated!”
There is no “calibration” required in Joe’s spreadsheet. It simply makes use of basic financial math formulas.
For once in your life, do some math, rather than just looking at an MMA report like it is some kind of magic. Take $3500 @ 6% over 30 years. There’s one way $3500 can turn into $20,000.
Of course, as you’ve helped to prove yet again, the MMA is inefficient. Therefore, it will be able to turn a $3500 cost into $20,000 in extra debt faster than 30 years.
Like you’ve said, if the radar gun says $20,000 on a $3,500 @ 6% for 30 years, you need to recalibrate it.
The spreadsheet of $3,500 at 6% for 30 years is a payment of $20.98 per month, for a grand total of $4,054.34 in interest over 30 years, for a total repayment of $7,554.34 NOT $20,000.
All I’ve proved is that you can’t do math!
My spreadsheet is every bit as accurate as Joe’s and I’ve proven that time and time again. Its just math and I do have a firm grip on the financial math formulas. Isn’t that right Joe?
The MMA program will knock that debt off like every other debt in short order, so no one on the MMA software will be financing the $3,500 over 30 years.
If that’s your assumption, you truly are showing how ignorant you are of the algorithms of the software.
Maybe you should learn the principles we use at NeverRefi dot com / stnick
Nick said:
“The spreadsheet of $3,500 at 6% for 30 years is a payment of $20.98 per month, for a grand total of $4,054.34 in interest over 30 years, for a total repayment of $7,554.34 NOT $20,000.”
When you add $3500 to someone’s debt, the interest compounds. You aren’t servicing that interest every month, because you’re busy paying off the interest from the original sources. Or if you way you’re attacking the $3500 first, it will be at the expense of the original debts, which will grow. You can’t have it both ways.
Use any compound interest calculator you like, and enter $3500 as the starting amount, 6% rate, and 30 years. At the end of 30 years, you have $20,102.22. Note that this is ignoring inflation.
JoeT and every other knucklehead on this blog that thinks they can EVER get an apples to apples comparison, listen up.
You’ll tell my client who has told me that they have about $50 per month in discretionary income NOT to pay $3,500 for the Money Merge Account program and simply put the $50 per month towards their mortgage and they will ALWAYS beat the MMA.
I’ve shown you where that is NOT the case and then been accused of hiding or falsifying information to make sure the MMA wins.
If you’re man enough, just admit that the MMA system will BETTER utilize ALL of our client’s income better than a simple “theoretical” DIY!
The ONLY way JoeT could come back and beat the MMA is for me to RUN an MMA analysis so it could find all the advantages that are programmed into it to find, and then REVERSE run HIS spreadsheet so that it would beat the MMA, again theoretically, and NO the client CANNOT spend that “extra” $358 per month towards their mortgage as they won’t have it available for 6 months or so.
BTW, taking the “extra” paycheck twice a year or in the case of weekly paychecks 4 times a year, add them all together and then divide by 12 is a scam in and of itself from the DIY side of the isle.
NO ONE making $1,000 per week has an extra $333 per month to spend, that’s not how the cash flow works and reality will prove it. He’ll get $4,000 per month to spend and every 3 months get an extra $1,000 that is available to do something with. Good luck convincing him to spend it all on his mortgage.
If the DIY folks have him add in the “extra” $333 per month towards his mortgage, you’ll put him in some financial hot water in a hurry as he won’t have it available for 3 months.
Will the DIY “theoretical” beat the MMA analysis in many situations? YES, it can, will, and has. But ONLY theoretically!
By design, the MMA analysis is conservative, its written that way, calculated that way, and done ON PURPOSE. The company guarantees 100% of those analysis numbers, and I’d be disappointed in the DIY scenarios if you DIDN’T beat it, its just math.
In order to “beat” the MMA your scenarios are going to have to get more complex than the “simply put your discretionary income towards your mortgage”. Which I’ve shown is apparently the case as you guys keep coming back with more and more complex scenarios to beat the $164k, 7.2%, $50 monthly discretionary income that I gave you.
And another thing – I’m waiting for you to find ALL these people that we have apparently ripped off, scammed, or deceived. Good luck with that one!
And JoeT, “prove” to all of us that the software is “flawed” as you assert. And I don’t mean with your “theoretical” numbers, I mean real life as you say “apples to apples” comparison of someone using DIY versus someone using the “flawed” MMA technology, information, and coaching.
Good luck with that one too! We all will be waiting with bated breath.
Just saying something is flawed, a ripoff, or a scam a billion times WILL NOT change the fact that the technology is helping tens of thousands of people, and if I have my way, will help millions in spite of your petty little close-minded theoretical arguments about Doing It Yourself.
Nick, I was committed to avoiding the name calling, I’m sorry you decided to go another route.
There’s no issue for me to duplicate the actual cash flow. I understand that a bi-weekly $2K produces an extra paycheck every 6 months. The time it would take to simulate that is seconds not even minutes as it’s a copy/paste after entering to first couple $2000 extra sums.
We’re at the point where you are focusing on a failure of the system, not a feature. I believe you when you say that most people don’t account for that extra check. I don’t know my weekly/bi-weekly pay. I do know my annual salary, and if an agent asked me for my monthly pay, I’d divide by 12. If you want to insist that the magic of MMA rests mostly on the capturing of the 13th month’s pay, that’s fine by me. Because the “send all extra money to highest interest debt” rule accomplishes just that.
If you’ve not seen my disclaimer, I’ll repeat it: “My spreadsheet adds no value. If you follow the rule (above) you get the same results, with or without the sheet. The sheet will let you track the exact date your mortgage will be paid off, but only payments with help change that date.” There is ‘no’ effort and no underlying math save for the fact that one should know that 20% is a higher rate that 6%. In fact, for those who don’t know which is higher, I heartily recommend MMA, as it excels at implementing the obvious.
From many sources I’ve found that UFirst and MMA are slowly fading away, I’m expecting that UFirst will go under within the next year or so, and I can continue my focus on other financial matters.
I am still a bit hurt that you called me a knucklehead.
Joe, monthly MMA sales figures from 2009:
Jan 3,473
Feb 2,177
Mar 2,428
Apr 2,058
May 1,353
Jun 1,092
Jul 849
Aug 710
Sept 583
As of September 09, MMA sales were down 83% compared to January 09. Unless you’re a UFirst agent, then the January 09 sales were up 600% compared to September 09
I listened to a UFirst training video from a few weeks ago, and Mac Saunders was less than pleasant. They’re scared, and you can hear it in Mac’s voice. They’ve let go of a lot of people, but they are still bleeding money and cash flow is obviously drying up.
I don’t think they can last another year at this rate, unless they have large cash reserves and are willing to accept losses. I’m more inclined to believe the likes of Skyler and John and a few top cronies will take their money and shut it down in 2010, but I could be wrong.
In the interim, what they really don’t want is agents posting on 3rd party websites. They’ve stated that continuously since 2007. Most are complying, but a few like Nick here still think they can rehabilitate the tarnished image of the MMA, single-handed. God bless ‘em – they keep sites like this alive for prospective clients to find and learn enough to avoid the MMA scam.
Craig, my friend, what did we do so wrong that sales were up in March?
On the other hand, 50K+ agents selling a great product that’s saved people $6.02*10^23 so far, and they only sold 14,723 in 9 months? Fewer than one in three agents made a sale all year?
If the trend continues, they’ll go sub-100/mo soon. I look forward to that.
Hey St Nick,
I was hoping your discussion would be more civil and straightforward.
Anyone who has the discipline to pay off their mortgage on their own by sending in what ever is leftover in their checking account, is going to take an extra paycheck and send that in, too. Yes, MMA gives a crutch to people who need it or want one. But if they decide to load up the credit card one month or write a few extra checks, MMA isn’t going to help them by creating money out of thin air.
There’s no magic with these numbers. As has been stated too many times by agents, but ignored, MATH IS MATH.
A loan with a higher interest rate costs more than one with a lower rate. Whether a person uses a debt snowball to pay of the smallest balance debt, or a debt avalanche to pay off the highest interest debt, that person will come out ahead on their own. I am sure you can create a scenario where someone has a lot of credit card debt at 20% or more, and MMA might come out ahead by using a 4% HELOC. But that person can do the same on their own with a consolidation loan. In fact, with a low-interest HELOC, it makes sense to only pay the interest, and pay off any higher-interest debts that remain.
As I’ve posted many times, MMA is for the financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate and intellectually lazy.
I paid off my mortgage years early by making a one time payment of several thousand dollars when I received my annual bonus. Now I regret it because I invested all that cash, and the house isn’t even worth what I’ve put into. In any case, you don’t need to pay thousands to pay down a mortgage, you just need $$$
A friend is trying to get my husband to become an agent for United First Financial. It smells of pyramid scheme to me, and in this economy, asking someone who has difficulty paying down their debt to shell out $3500 sounds ridiculous. However, company has a B+ rating with BBB in NJ. Hope my hubbie wakes up and smells the coffee!
Carol,
A warning: be careful who you get advice from, that includes ME.
First off, JoeT, though a great guy, IS not the all knowing guru on business, making money, or for that matter even the Money Merge Account and United First Financial.
They (the DIY crowd) would love for uFirst to close its doors, which btw, isn’t going to happen any time soon, but if JoeT, Jimmy, and Craig would like to start holding their breath, be my guest.
Craig and JoeT have a burr under their saddle about something and this blog let’s them vent, its America and the 1st Amendment is still in effect as far as I know, it doesn’t, however, qualify them for much of anything as an expert.
As for the financial status of uFirst, obviously not understanding cycles, Craig points out how uFirst is dwindling and will be out of business shortly. IF, his sales numbers are right, that means that uFirst as a company has generated almost $15 million dollars in revenues in an industry that has well OVER 50% profit margins, usually approaching 80% in many companies, so running in the red form 15,000 sales in 9 months is just wishful thinking for these guys.
They’ve paid out to the field over $36,000,000 in commissions and bonuses, and here’s where they will interject their new math and divide that by the total number of agents (which the 20/80 rule applies) making agents a very nice income so far in 2009.
They still haven’t delivered anyone that I know of that has invested the $3,500 for the MMA that is not seeing the benefits of the program, most of which are thrilled with the results, hardly making it a scam. I’m still waiting guys.
The only reason uFirst doesn’t have a A rating is the “time” factor, which being 4 1/2 years old isn’t long enough to obtain yet, but it should be shortly.
Out of tens of thousands of users, there have been a whopping 33 complaints with the Utah BBB, and ALL 33 have been resolved.
I know I’ll catch a lot of heat for this, but I’ll say it anyway, like I said its America and free speech is still legal – If you aren’t supportive of your husband were he to become an agent, it will make success much more difficult. Men do great things because of the love and unconditional support of their wives.
Is it a pyramid scheme, no, its a business, structured much like Realtors and Insurance brokerages are structured.
So, do you and your husband a favor, talk with people ON the program, not just listening to a couple guys on a blog, talk with some successful agents, not necessarily just your husband’s buddy.
Is it work, yes, is it worth it to help people own their house outright in record time? Yes!
Can you make a great living at it? Again Yes!
NeverRefi dot com / stnick to learn more.
I know all I need to know about MMA. I know that most agents don’t know when they’ve made an entry error. Specifically, when you tell them you make $52000/yr, one will properly enter $2000 bi-weekly, the other will enter $2166 ($52k/24), and also key it in as bi-weekly. Then when the payoff appears reduced by many years, claim it’s the software.
Let me be really clear here, this is a product that will be intertwined with your finances, it wants to be the basis of every transaction you make. Yet, there are no qualifications to sell it, and those who support it have no financial background. UFirst disclaims that they do not offer financial advice, just software.
Don’t believe me. Search google for MMA or Ufirst and see what you get. Scam is written all over this. Why are most of the original agents moving on to other things? Quietly shutting their web sites and picking up another thing to sell.
What percentage of those sales were for the Express version? What percentage were financed with $2K (Pro), $1K (Express), or $250 down? I believe the owners when they say they have reserves to keep them in the black for a while, but all the chatter on Facebook/Twitter/etc from recently let go UFirst employees would make me a little nervous.
But I’ll admit all of that is just a sideshow. I am most interested in the math.
L2G – I don’t know the numbers, maybe we should ask Craig, he seems to be able to get them from somewhere.
And like FB/Twitter/etc are reliable news sources?
It still boils down to theory vs reality. If the MMA analysis is using math, then obviously math works. But the real power is in a system that will keep you on track over the long haul and as it does so keeps adjusting to the income and expenses cycle.
JoeT – because a few agents aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed DOES NOT invalidate a software, even if you’d like it to. I’ve had idiot mechanics work on my car, but the industry didn’t get shut down because of them and it doesn’t mean that working on cars is bogus.
2 extra bi-weekly paychecks can have a significant effect on paying down your mortgage, but let’s face it, no one is saying, Oh look honey, we just got that extra paycheck, let’s put it all towards our mortgage! No, their thinking 50 inch flatscreen TV, new rims for the SUV, etc.
It will better utilize all of someone’s income, adjust for annual raises, tax refunds, etc, while the DIY crowd has the latest rule of “just send in everything left over to your mortgage and it will beat the MMA”.
I’ve started surveying people, and NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE looks at what they have on the last day of the month and writes a check for that full amount and sends it into their mortgage company. Who are you trying to kid???
If all you DIYer’s hate this company so much, and you believe we are NOT delivering a credible product, go do something about it instead of venting and “claiming” scam on blogs like maybe you should really do some good and have it OUTLAWED by the FTC in EVERY state in the country.
That would really be doing something constructive instead of just venting here.
I know of a company that wasn’t a scam but was doing just about everything wrong and they did appear as one, the AG shut them down in less than 6 months. uFirst has been in business providing a viable software product that has delivered time and time again for over 4 1/2 years, do your really think the AG’s and FTC wouldn’t have done something about it to protect the public from this “massive” rip off?
I suggest you redirect your energy to the HUGE rip off of Re-Financing. That sets people back years and years, forces them to pay that interest yet again and they charge astronomical amounts that get folded into that refinance which they pay interest on that also.
Go after them and leave the handful of Americans working as United First Financial agents alone who are trying to HELP people own their home outright!
MMA adds no more intelligence that the “just send all month end money to your debt.” Its use of the HELOC adds a layer of risk most people should otherwise shy away from.
More than 100% of the money saved in your latest analysis comes from the client having those two extra checks per year.
If you just came forward and stated “I have a $3500 system that will direct you to direct your two extra paychecks per year to your mortgage” and call it quits, I’d be okay with that. It’s pretty simple, not sure how you don’t see this.
What payoff do you get if I tell you I have the same annual income as your client but am paid twice monthly, 1st and 15th? Same $50/mo extra. Do you mind answering this? And no money in savings to pay the $3500. It starts by pulling that from the HELOC.
Nicholas,
You said, “If the MMA analysis is using math, then obviously math works.”
What you are using, I’m sure you realize, is the Agent Portal Analysis which estimates what the actual MMA would do. The two are not the same. How do I know? Using both and running trial scenarios in the actual MMA through complete debt payoff (as oppossed to just 3 months like is often shown in the demo accounts.)
I have seen instances where the MMA instructed a transfer of $0.50 from a checking to a savings account for a month. Literally 50 cents! This was not in an instance when the account was 50 cents short of the next bill or low account limit.
I have seen instances where the MMA instructs a transfer to a debt larger than the outstanding amount.
Another recent client (Search the older posts on this thread for ‘Sandy’) was instructed to make a transfer that would overdraft a checking account.
UFirst only recently this year fixed a bug that caused account balances to be off by a few cents after a few iterations through the action plan.
JoeT has shown at his site that the MMA ineffectively uses a HELOC when its interest rate is higher than the mortage rate.
I will ask you again to see my name for a link to all the pertinent items entered in to a typical Analysis. With the all the parameters you entered to obtain the results in your previous comments, we can then compare true apples to apples.
Carol -
I have been posting about this product for over a year. If you read any of my posts you’ll find the pyramid aspect is the least of my issues. Somehow to me the fact that there is no value to the product itself takes center stage. The fact that no agent who goes head to head with my numbers stays to conclude the discussion, or if he does, will admit defeat. The same concept is offered for $19.95 in a late night infomercial, and even then, I’d say don’t waste your money.
No good can come from your husband doing this.
Nicholas,
I haven’t heard back on your previous analysis that you gave Joe and was wondering if you could post the other input parameters that resulted in your Analysis. I have linked my name to a Google Doc spreadsheet with about 30 pertinent items that typically get entered in an MMA Analysis (along with a screen captures of the input screens for the curious). I left out some that don’t affect the Analysis numbers (lender/bank names, source of income, etc). I am interested to see the other inputs.
UFF actually had a D+ rating with the BBB a few months ago. Those “Resolved” cases may not be resolved satisfactorily to the clients.
I am one of those who used the program and it was a HUGE mistake, which I learned pretty quickly. I had many issues with the program and found early on that my money was completely wasted. UFF will not refund my money, saying that after you sign the paperwork you have three days to change your mind, and after that, tough. You don’t even get your login until after those three days are up. It is frustrating to think about what else I could have done with that much money.
All the program has you do is borrow a huge chunk of money from your Heloc and send it to the bank. Then you apply all your paychecks to pay down part of your Heloc and the interest. And basically you are living on borrowed money.
There are other costs involved as well — it costs more than $3500. You also have to pay for a home appraisal to get the Heloc ($325) and the Heloc probably comes with a yearly fee ($90). And don’t forget the interest you are paying for the money you borrow from the Heloc, to pay down the money you borrowed from a bank.
I’m glad I quit using the program before it caused me worse financial problems. I am mad at the guy who sold this to me – he doesn’t use it himself and doesn’t even know HOW to use it.
I know a lot of people on the boards have never used the program, but I have, and I regret ever meeting the agent who took my money.
Sandy,
I’m glad you wrote in to comment. The agents who continue to peddle this scam talk about the guarantee which as you point out is meaningless.
I’d suggest you file a BBB complaint as well, and take that away from them as they continue to claim few complaints against the company.
I haven’t used MMA, I don’t need to. I could tell from day one it was a waste of money. I’d like to see the other unhappy people who were conned out of their money come forward as you did.
I’ve been dealing with the Utah BBB for some time, and that is giving me a different view of the BBB process. After making your case, getting a response, and making your case again, the BBB says you have to make a “middle ground offer” or make suggestions on how to resolve the dispute, or they will close the case as resolved. The consumer, not the company, has to make the offer, which seems odd to me. And of course I seriously doubt that UFF is willing to negotiate. It’s very frustrating, and it seems the whole process is a waste of time. The BBB also informs you that for $75 you can do an arbitration. But at this point I don’t trust an arbitrator, either.
I now believe most of those “resolved” complaints with the Utah BBB weren’t really resolved, but that the consumers gave up out of frustration, or the BBB closed the case due to not reaching a “middle ground.”
Thank you for this information. I was thinking I could do the same on my own as I am a very good person with my money and stick to the budget.
The MMA can be even worse for people who have bad money habits, like shopaholics. It doesn’t create a budget for you or make you stick to it – that’s on you. The MMA simply works from snapshots of your financial status, which you have to enter manually.
Those who would like a software coach can buy Quicken or MS Money for less than $100, and both make the MMA look like an abacus.
Craig,
That’s true, of course. Unfortunately, the agents’ lies make this scam sound like a magic formula that somehow beats the banks at their own game.
Once anyone looks at it, it takes an understanding of 4th grade math to see that it has no value at all.
If Nick is so sure of the product, why has he not replied to the simple questions we’ve posed?
All it takes is a bit of honest response as we got from NJBlue to explain how MMA does nothing for the user.
Elsewhere there are users who now are telling us that when they realize after a couple months that this is a scam, UFF tells them the 3 day right of rescission has passed. There is no real guarantee, only that the program will do what the analysis says it will. Since you need to sign this, you are agreeing that the entries were correct. So even when the agent enters your income incorrectly (the bi-weekly vs bi-monthly issue) you’ve signed that it’s correct.
Back to Nick. Is it not misleading to offer me an example here, stating $50/mo extra, yet when I see the analysis sheet, I find the software applying an average of more than $300/mo? Had he disclosed here that it’s $50/mo, plus two extra paychecks per year, I’m happy to add the extra money to my spreadsheet. In the end, I admit that copy/paste/paste/paste to change two income streams per month does add an onerous amount of time, 30 seconds even, it also goes to show that any time an agent pops up with extraordinary results, there’s one of two explanations: An extraordinary error, or an extraordinary lie.
Well JoeT, I’m disappointed in you, I thought you were going to be above name calling, but calling me a LIAR just crossed the line.
I can’t help it if the DIYers keep having to change the rules to beat the MMA, I’d actually be surprised if you didn’t, you HAVE to win don’t you?
I’ve not been misleading, and apparently your reading and retention skills are lacking as well as I’ve already covered this before.
I asked what your rules where, it was that instead of using the MMA, you’d simply advise a client to take their “discretionary” income and apply THAT to their mortgage every month, save the fee for the software and they’d come out ahead.
I proved that your diy add the discretionary would be beat by $63,000 dollars. So then you wanted ALL of my input and it just so happened that the client was getting paid bi-weekly, not one of the inputs you asked for, so I was not under any misleading notion.
If you think the analysis is using an “average of more than $300/mo”, then you are truly showing your ignorance of the technology.
Listen JoeT, I applaud you for putting together your spreadsheet and if its helping people I applaud you for that also.
And yes, the MMA program will BETTER utilize ALL of a person’s income then the add the discretionary diy system – period.
If you want to get mad about that, fine.
In your example above, NO ONE has an EXTRA $300/mo because they get 2 extra paychecks per year. They get TWO extra paychecks per year and although your THEORY says they will take that entire paycheck and pay it towards their mortgage, you are obviously DISCONNECTED from the real world, my surveys show so far that NO ONE does that in REALITY!
My surveys are also showing that NO ONE looks at their checkbook balance at the end of the month and writes a check for that full amount and sends it into their mortgage company to pay down their mortgage. More THEORY, and that THEORY is rapidly approaching absurdity!
Can people save money by implementing a diy system on their mortgage, yes, but it will in REALITY never beat the MMA.
So back to the “scam” part of your argument.
We’ve taken tens of thousands of people who were probably NOT doing much of ANYTHING to accelerate paying down their mortgage, I teach them some principles and introduce them to a technology that utilizes all those principles more efficiently than they can on their own, they purchase the technology and it does what the company says it will do or in 80% of the cases even out performs the analysis by 15%-25%. The education alone is worth the price of the technology, plus they get a lifetime of customer service for FREE, a coach, and can use the software over and over again.
So help me understand how we are ripping ANYONE off or how that makes it a scam?
Will there be people who are unhappy with a product, sure, there are probably people unhappy with YOUR spreadsheet, but I don’t see a blog trying to discourage them from using it because of a few people being unhappy with it.
Unhappy people about a product or service DOES NOT make ANYTHING a scam!
If you truly believe its a scam, call the FTC and the AG’s and get them shut down. NOT gonna happen because its a legitimate service producing results, regardless of how upset you are at the cost and that people will spend it to get results – GUARANTEED.
If its your mission in life to “save the world” from United First Financial, I’m telling you you’re a small person and need to get a life.
You’re a fairly bright guy, I mean, you aced the SAT tests, go find a worthwhile cause and throw your energy into that.
I have one more question.
If I have a client that the MMA will help, and then you persuade them NOT to spend the money on the program and then they go back to doing NOTHING, who has hurt them more?
Nick – You assume that when I refer to an agent that I include you, and would accuse me of being disingenuous if I claimed otherwise. I did not call you a liar, however. Until this moment I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and trusting that you were in error.
I caution you, your signal to noise is dropping like a rock, you’re starting to sound like RealTruthInLending.
Let’s get back to the numbers, shall we? You offer the analysis showing the normal amortization table with a $13,293 total paid per year. On MMA, total paid per year is $17,595. This delta is $358.50/mo. Yet you tell me $50/mo is what’s available for discretionary. Hmmm. That’s either a lie or an oversight. When I point this out, and offer that it’s the oddity of data entry, showing that while the client’s income has the two extra checks per year, you agree, but then tell me that since it ddoesn’t come monthly, I can’t consider it $300/mo. OK. I offer to use it as it comes in, $1800 twice per year. No, people don’t do this in real life, Joe. Huh?
By the way, if one were to open a HELOC on their own, and start by simply drawing down a few week’s pay, sending it to their highest debt first, they’d have the same results. Better by not throwing away the $3500. Everything you claim the DIYers don’t do the MMA system requires ten-fold. Every transaction entered twice, first in one’s checking/savings/etc, then into the MMA software.
You are correct. I am only fairly bright. It was the Math I aced. The English I don’t talk about. Because English fails me, as exemplified by our discussion here.
Your question is Hobson’s choice. I’ll pass on addressing it.
Nick, do you really believe that MMA creates/saves that extra $3700/yr?
Good Heavens, Nic, how can you call other people
liars and then post such whoppers?
“I proved that your diy add the discretionary would be beat by $63,000 dollars.”
I know a lot of smart people who would pay $3,500 to save $63,000. Not surprisingly, they
don’t use any UFF products.
“And yes, the MMA program will BETTER utilize ALL of a person’s income then the add the discretionary diy system – period.”
Wow!
Of all your lies, my favorite is this one:
“The education alone is worth the price of the technology….”
I think you might even be able to use this
idea when you move on to Tru Chocolate. You could tell your marks they will lose a pound a day, and get an education for no extra charge.
just an FYI, HELOCs are free through most banks and right now you can get one at 4% through US Bank if you are below 80% Loan to Value.