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United First Financial Money Merge Accounts: Scam or Legit?
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A reader recently sent an email asking about a program United First Financial runs called a Money Merge Account and whether it was legitimate. United First Financial promises that the program, which costs $3500, would have you pay off the mortgage in one-third to one-half the time it normally would take. Knowing nothing about money merge accounts and knowing a little bit more about simple math, I smelled a fat $3500 scam brewing. The only scenario in which I could see $3500 cutting your mortgage in half is if you had a $7000 mortgage. But, setting my mental scam alerts aside, I did some more research about the plan.
Apparently it’s a fancy name for an accelerated mortgage repayment scheme. The first step in the money merge account is to take out a second mortgage on your home, a home equity line of credit. Then, what you do pay your entire paycheck towards the first mortgage and withdraw money from the HELOC to cover your expenses. You save a little money because the interest on a HELOC is calculated based on average daily balance rather than the final monthly balance. This lets you pay off more of the mortgage at the beginning of the month and then be charged less interest on the HELOC. (this assumes the same interest rate, which is a big flaw)
However, the plan also has a lot of other assumptions and flaws.
- It assumes that your HELOC interest rate will be the same as your first mortgage interest rate – very unlikely. The bigger the HELOC rate, the less you save on that difference.
- It assumes a single monthly paycheck so it’s a plan that loses some of its power if you are paid irregularly or every two weeks.
- One big flaw is that there is never discussion of HELOC fees. I’ve never opened a HELOC but I imagine it’s not free.
- This plan requires that you don’t save at all for anything else. Since your entire paycheck goes towards the mortgage and you withdraw expenses, it penalizes you drawing on the HELOC for non-essentials. Why pay $100 towards a 6-7% mortgage and then borrow $100 from a 10% HELOC?
- Finally, as if all those weren’t enough, you have to pay $3,500 for a program to help you do this!?
In researching this article I researched a lot of sites and they were nearly unanimous in their opinion that these types of programs are not worth the money (not surprisingly). They’re not scams in the sense that you pay your $3500 and they disappear into the night but it’s something you can do yourself.
This begs the question, should you use it to force discipline? I could justify paying $100 to enforce discipline because it can save you quite a bit in the long run, if you can overcome the failings, but $3500 is ridiculous. If you have $3500 and you want to pay off your mortgage sooner, send a $3500 check to your mortgage company. (if you want a legitimate and easy way to pay off a mortgage faster, consider making mortgage payments every two weeks)
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Dear Reader:
You have just read about Tina Shaw, a true koolaid drinker, who believes that MMA did something MAGIC they could never have done by themselves. And THEY ARE RIGHT. As I have said before, people like Tina are financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate and/or intellectual lazy. If they understood how their personal income was flowing through their checkbook, they would have found the same discretionary income that MMA found. I suppose you could say that $3500 that MMA charges is a finder’s fee for finding money in a person’s life that they can’t find themselves.
So, to repeat, if you want to duplicate what MMA does, ONLY BETTER:
1) Get a HELOC equal to 3 times your take-home pay. Make sure you pay no fees at all, ever. Make sure you can connect that HELOC with your checking account so you can transfer money back and forth electronically without any problems.
2) At the end of the month, after all your bills have been paid and the checks have cleared, empty out your checking account and your emergency savings account and pay down your mortgage with that money. Now, don’t you feel better that you have none of that idle cash just sitting around not earning some fabulous return? Don’t worry about not having any spare cash, you have a HELOC as a backup!
3) Start paying your bills with the HELOC.
4) When you get paid, pay off as much of the HELOC as you can. If you still have money left, let it sit.
5) Keep paying bills with the HELOC, making sure to keep your checking account as empty as possible. Don’t worry about the HELOC going negative, it will.
Oops!
6) At end of the month, if the HELOC is negative and the checking account still has cash, pay down the HELOC, otherwise, pay down the mortgage.
7) Go back to step 3 each month, until the mortgage is paid off.
Yes, it’s that simple.
Dear James Barnes, Tina Shaw, Sue Copening, Dave Moore, Jennifer Hartman, and other UFF agents that might be reading:
Please stop selling this scam software.
If you took 5 minutes to show people how easy it is to pay off their mortgage early without expensive and unnecessary software those people would be much better off.
When you attempt to create an illusion that paying off debt is hard to do without software you are not doing anyone a favor – except of course yourselves. By collecting fat commission checks on each sale your biased opinions are weighed lightly on this board and several others that have spread across the internet.
You have taken advantage of too many math illiterates, financial novices, and trustworthy people across the nation. As was done in Australia, it is only a matter of time that local and federal governments step in to stop this scam.
Don’t be caught red handed when the inevitable happens.
-WhackAShill-
I have to be honest….. wow! if I had known how long this blog was I am not sure I would have gotten involved. BUT my mom was approached with the United First program… and I have to think that it may open some eyes as to using OPM (other peoples money) as a way of paying down the mortgage faster. She is on a salary, so her income doesn’t fluctuate, and her bills are consistent… so it seems logical that this system might come in handy. The use of credit cards and the grace period appears that it should work seeing how you can pay everything online from electric bills to cell phones to well… whatever. Whackashill and Craig have said that you can do it yourself and just put your extra money on the highest interest bill and attack that, but I was surprised to see in the example that the “transfer” went to the car note which was at a lower % and then it showed the ramifications if you chose not to follow the program. Interesting to say the least.
I am all about OPM… I used credit cards to purchase residential real estate to “flip” back when the market was good and I think more people should use this money as a means for investments as opposed to debt. Can one do it themselves?? I would think so if their finances aren’t complicated. House, car, couple credit cards…. should be easy. But for others I can see where there might be a benefit. I definitely appreciate all the input. I am trying to make a logical decision based on all the factors.
Oh… and I am not certain of anyone’s experience with “UFF” agents… but we had no scare tactics or pressure put on us to force a decision. I believe that the agent believes that they are doing a positive service for us and if it will help us, great… if not, that is ok too. What I saw was someone trying to create a win/win… and at the same time the verdict is out on that, still collecting information. Nonetheless, the use of “scam” which I have seen quite often… I don’t think applies. From what I have read here and seen on the youtube clips.. the software works.
Parthos
Please familiarize yourself with the “debt snowball”. While, financially, it makes sense to pay down the highest interest rate debt first, psychologically, people like to see progress in getting a debt paid off, not just reduced. I also suggest you read all the posts above. I know it’s long. I posted an interactive spreadsheet you can use to test your own numbers.
MMA uses a LOC to consolidate all consumer debts and uses the freed-up cash to make payments to the LOC. Of course, you never see this because all income and expenses are run through the LOC. You don’t need to pay $3500 to MMA to consolidate your debts.
As for using credit cards with MMA, I am completely unfamiliar with that. I can’t see how it’s possible to beat doing it yourself this way, either, because:
1) Credit cards charge 3% for cash advances, plus the high interest rates from day 1.
2) Anyone using a credit card is already getting a “float”, so how can using MMA get you a better float?
3) The $3500 MMA fee, plus it’s interest cost will never be recaptured by any savings MMA might get for you over doing it yourself.
HOW CAN I GET YOUR SPREADSHRRT?
“I have to be honest….. wow! if I had known how long this blog was I am not sure I would have gotten involved. BUT my mom was approached with the United First program… and I have to think that it may open some eyes as to using OPM (other peoples money) as a way of paying down the mortgage faster.”
While you can save a few dollars by using the HELOC shuffle or the Credit Card Float, it never makes up for the $3500/$3800 fee. You’re not only losing that money plus interest on that money, your losing the opportunity to pay down your debt and cancel interest with that money.
“ She is on a salary, so her income doesn’t fluctuate, and her bills are consistent… so it seems logical that this system might come in handy.”
The system can save you a few dollars, but in every scenario presented on this board and several others shows that it does not justify the high fee. Remember, 99% of the interest cancelation occurs with the persons own money, this is something anyone can replicate by simply sending this money to their mortgage/debt directly, skipping the UFF middleman.
“The use of credit cards and the grace period appears that it should work seeing how you can pay everything online from electric bills to cell phones to well…”
Jimmy DaGeek already explained how this is a flawed method, again, any savings does not make up the huge fee.
“whatever. Whackashill and Craig have said that you can do it yourself and just put your extra money on the highest interest bill and attack that, but I was surprised to see in the example that the “transfer” went to the car note which was at a lower % and then it showed the ramifications if you chose not to follow the program. Interesting to say the least.”
I’m not following your point, in every example ever shown on any message board shows UFF losing to the much simpler method of do-it-yourself.
“I am all about OPM… I used credit cards to purchase residential real estate to “flip” back when the market was good and I think more people should use this money as a means for investments as opposed to debt. Can one do it themselves??”
Very easily, you just said you did it. If not, use Microsoft Money or Quicken if you need to track your finances. (2% the cost of UFF)
“I am trying to make a logical decision based on all the factors.”
In every scenario presented UFF loses. It’s as simple as this analogy:
A. Pay $3500/$3800 to use a complicated software program to save $100,000
B. Pay $0 to send your extra money to your mortgage to save $110,000
When the FACTS are presented, the decision is easy.
“Oh… and I am not certain of anyone’s experience with “UFF” agents… but we had no scare tactics or pressure put on us to force a decision. I believe that the agent believes that they are doing a positive service for us and if it will help us, great… if not, that is ok too. What I saw was someone trying to create a win/win… and at the same time the verdict is out on that, still collecting information. Nonetheless, the use of “scam” which I have seen quite often… I don’t think applies. From what I have read here and seen on the youtube clips.. the software works.”
The software might work, but it is more time consuming and provides less savings then doing a simpler method yourself: EVERY TIME. Even worse, most agents do not know HOW the program works. It is a common belief that the HELOC or LOC is somehow savings TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, when actually the savings does not even come close to paying off the UFF fee.
99% of the savings comes from the persons OWN money, the 1% does not cover the $3500/$3800 fee.
Parthos
Why in the world would you believe what you see in a YouTube video? If you read through the posts, you would see that the software is not a scam, just the way it is being sold and the claims made for it. Do you honestly believe that MMA will pay off a mortgage in 1/3 to 1/2 the time with little to no change in one’s spending habits? Something has to give.
I am sure MMA works as advertised. The problem is that it will cost you at least $10,000 more than doing it yourself. You wrote that your mother’s income and expenses are regular and predictable. I suggest the she get rid of her credit card debt before worrying about paying a mortgage off. That’s where the debt snowball comes in. After she’s done with that, she will have a chunk of cash to use every month for something else.
JimmyDaGeek you say, “Why in the world would you believe what you see in a YouTube video?” The only person who sent me YouTube video links was WhackAShill. YouTube video is just delivery system. YouTube is not what makes something good or bad, it is what it says. I chose not to get UFF, but I agree that it is not scam. I will like to help people understand that there are other ways that could be better for them to pay off mortgage, but not to say to them that using UFF makes no sense, it is scam, and make them feel like dumb people. I say it is better to treat people with respect if you want them to listen to you. Otherwise they get demoralized. I think they do not leave this discussion board because of math that shows they are wrong. They leave because they feel people are beating up on them and making them feel dumb and not capable. I hope WhackAShill is listening too. Also why do some of you guys use goofy names like WhackAShill instead of your real name. I think most people who want information and want to learn are turned off by this. This is my opinion but I think it is right.
I disagree that the MMA works as advertised. The advertisement techniques that UFF corporation and their agents use leads people to believe that the HELOC or other type of LOC is somehow savings tens of thousands of dollars, when actually it is saving less than $25/mo.
If it worked as advertised, heck I’d buy it.
Bonhoeffer said:
“I chose not to get UFF, but I agree that it is not scam. ”
Perhaps the program itself is not a scam. But when the great majority of agents don’t know how it works, and teach others their misinformed ideas of how it works, it becomes a scam.
When people buy the UFF product they think that the HELOC or LOC is saving them tens of thousands of dollars, when actually it is saving less than $25/mo.
The other reason it is a scam is that the owners/directors/creators came up with this marketing plan based on a lie.
The lie is that the HELOC is the reason for the great savings – This is a lie and Bonhoeffer you cant dispute this, the math proves this.
Example:
An oil company claims that you could run your car on half as much gas per mile if you used their product. Of course it turns out this is a total lie. This is considered a scam.
UFF does the same thing, only they get away with it for the most part because a whole lot of people do not understand mortgages and other finances.
Conclusion:
UFF is a scam. If they took the product and sold it without using lies then it would not be a scam. The problem for UFF is: NOBODY WOULD PAY $3500 for it if they knew the truth!
WhackAShill what is your real name? Do you know that the U.S. government took over the two largest mortgage companies in the country today? Why? Because these companies gave loans to home buyers that should not have qualified, mostly ARMs when they led people to believe they could be ok because they would get pay raises to make up for increases in monthly payments. Then FannieMae and FreddyMac resold these loans and later millions of people defaulted. I ask you simply, which is doing more harm to home buyers and which is really scam. I have never heard you say FannyMe or FreddyMac are scams for promising things they could not deliver and for misleading millions of home buyers. Maybe UFF is not so great but is it worse than FannyMae and FreddyMac? I think not. Maybe if you want to help people so much you should have warned them about these no good mortgage loans. Is anyone going bankrupt for having UFF? Is anyone have foreclosure? Which is bigger scam? Maybe many home buyers through all these mortgage companies your family owns are not so happy with you now because you helped them get bad mortgages. Were you doing scams?
I would say I hope you were doing what you thought was good, just like most UFF agents and buyers are doing. But in the end who is worse.
The more I think about this the more I think maybe $3500 is small price to pay for taking control of a person’s finances to keep them from owing more on their house than it has value, even if they don’t pay all off. At least it can keep them in the house longer until economy picks up. It can change the way they look at how they spend their money and give them incentive. I bet many people wish they had done something like this before they lost their home and had to live in their cars since over 9% of home loans are now in default. I see I do not need the MMA but how can I say others should not get it even if it does cost them some money. Every day people spend more money for all kinds of things than the things are worth and they spend money for all kinds of things they do not need. I think more people waste money on other things than they do with MMA. This is my opinion.
Bonhoeffer,
Your above information in regards to mortgage companies is further evidence that the UFF product should not be used.
A HELOC is based on an adjustable rate and that is what UFF uses.
Again Bonhoeffer you have no logical argument against my statements, you are forced to attack the messenger.
Most UFF agents are financial idiots themselves that fell for this scam. I have no doubt that several think they are doing good, this does not make it so.
I believe that Germans in the 1930’s and 1940’s thought they were doing good under Hitler, they were of course wrong.
In the end the UFF user comes out about $10,000 behind then if they used the easy free method so I guess in the end they are financially worse off.
WhackAShill if you want to talk about Nazism and Hitler and what totalitarian systems do to people I will be pleased to discuss this with you in detail since I know from personal experience as well as my studies a lot more about these things than I do about mortgage systems in U.S. You can start by telling me your real name. If you do not know every person from eastern Europe is suspicious of people who cannot use their real name.
I am not attacking the messenger. I am attacking the principle of freedom of choice since that is what this country is built on and I am talking about the principle of what will cost a person the most money and create the most serious effect long term. I think these are logical points. I would rather have adjustable HELOC than adjustable mortgage. That’s why so many people are in default on mortgage loans now. With ARM mortgage the rate can NEVER come down. It only goes up as you know. What will you say about these mortgage companies who got so many people in so much trouble by giving them misleading information. This is not attacking the messenger is it.
Bonhoeffer said:
“The more I think about this the more I think maybe $3500 is small price to pay for taking control of a person’s finances to keep them from owing more on their house than it has value, even if they don’t pay all off.”
If only that was how UFF marketed the program. Instead agents lie saying that the HELOC or LOC is saving tens of thousands of dollars. I wouldn’t use the UFF program to “take control of finances.” I would use Microsoft Money or Quicken to do that at 2% of the cost.
“At least it can keep them in the house longer until economy picks up. It can change the way they look at how they spend their money and give them incentive. “
I’ll give you this one, it can change the way they look at how they spend their money. However, the UFF user does not buy the program for this feature. They buy it because they think the HELOC or LOC is saving them tens of thousands of dollars.
There are much cheaper ways to help people change their spending habits.
“I bet many people wish they had done something like this before they lost their home and had to live in their cars since over 9% of home loans are now in default.”
Where did you get this figure? 9% is not what most sources claim.
“I see I do not need the MMA but how can I say others should not get it even if it does cost them some money. Every day people spend more money for all kinds of things than the things are worth and they spend money for all kinds of things they do not need. I think more people waste money on other things than they do with MMA. This is my opinion.”
I agree that people spend money on crap they don’t need, UFF is one of those things they do not need. The only reason anyone would buy the product is because they think the HELOC shuffle is saving them tens of thousands of dollars – this lie was created to sell more copies of UFF.
People do not buy the software for motivation, they buy it under false pretenses.
Bonhoeffer ignores this.
Bonhoeffer,
It gets very weary when MMA advocates keep “misrepresenting” the truth about MMA and doing it yourself. They never come back with numbers that can’t be beaten by doing it yourself. People that post about their own experiences and circumstances refuse to believe they could have done better on their own. They jump up and down claiming rocket science beats doing it yourself without any proof to the contrary. They don’t want to believe the numbers. Do you believe the banks that calculate the interest on your debts each month? The spreadsheets I provided calculate the same numbers and show you how simple it is to beat MMA. Does life throw curves at us? Of course! That is why having a HELOC as backup is necessary if you want to maximize your payoff, just like MMA. Otherwise, you end up with conservative surpluses that reduce the payoff effectiveness. Any timing advantage that MMA claims to have is overwhelmed by the fee and its interest cost.
I keep presenting facts and all I get in return are testimonials. So which do you believe?
“WhackAShill if you want to talk about Nazism and Hitler and what totalitarian systems do to people I will be pleased to discuss this with you in detail since I know from personal experience as well as my studies a lot more about these things than I do about mortgage systems in U.S. “
This is not the place for that discussion, this board is about United First Financial and how it is a scam. My above statement was for analogy purposes only.
“You can start by telling me your real name. If you do not know every person from eastern Europe is suspicious of people who cannot use their real name.”
No thanks, I don’t know your name is really Bonhoeffer so I’ll stick to my screen name. You have no other reason to know my name other than to attack the messenger and continue to ignore the statements.
“I am not attacking the messenger.”
That’s exactly what your doing, you have no logical argument against my statements.
“ I am attacking the principle of freedom of choice since that is what this country is built on and I am talking about the principle of what will cost a person the most money and create the most serious effect long term.”
UFF denies this freedom because the company and agents withhold serious information that people need to make an informed decision on the purchase of their product.
“ I think these are logical points.”
They certainly would be if they were true
“I would rather have adjustable HELOC than adjustable mortgage.”
So would I but UFF does not solve this problem.
“That’s why so many people are in default on mortgage loans now. With ARM mortgage the rate can NEVER come down. It only goes up as you know. “
The UFF system does not refinance an ARM and it takes longer to pay off a mortgage with UFF then it does to do it yourself so I don’t know why your bringing this up.
“What will you say about these mortgage companies who got so many people in so much trouble by giving them misleading information.”
My friend works for a law office that does nothing but prosecute these companies, there are literally thousands of cases that are producing costly settlements and even jail time in some fraud cases.
“This is not attacking the messenger is it.”
If you stopped focusing on who I am and instead read what I am saying you would realize that I am trying to help people make an informed decision. UFF agents do not disclose pertinent information to their clients, this web site, as well as several others attempt to point this out.
I got the 9% figure of homeowner defaults from Associated Press. You can find it in the link below.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g5p1V4diO9oEysg51J_ONG460lwgD930O5L80
You say, “Where did you get this figure? 9% is not what most sources claim.” What are most sources claiming and where are you getting your figures?
WhackAShill I did not bring up Nazism and Hitler, you did. I don’t think you should use this as analogy for UFF since even if UFF is not good it does not compare to atrocities of Nazism or any totalitarian system.
You said, “UFF denies this freedom because the company and agents withhold serious information that people need to make an informed decision on the purchase of their product.” No, UFF does not deny freedom of choice. Nobody is forced to use UFF so this is not correct.
You say I am attacking messenger because I have no logical arguments. What can I say? I told you what I say is my opinion. If you think my arguments are not logical that is your opinion. I think they are logical. How am I attacking messenger?
You say UFF does not solve problem of adjustable ARM. I didn’t say it does. I agree with you. All I am showing is that adjustable mortgage is worse than adjustable HELOC and it caused many people to lose their homes.
You say, “My friend works for a law office that does nothing but prosecute these companies, there are literally thousands of cases that are producing costly settlements and even jail time in some fraud cases.” Very good. What is name of your friend’s law office so I can see what he is doing. This would be very helpful and interesting information for me. Thank you very much for giving me this. I have not heard about thousands of companies being prosecuted so I would like to know about this very much.
You say I am attacking you because I ask your real name. I did not think this was attacking you. If you think so I am sorry for this. Also, can you show me other discussion boards or something where you are also helping people avoid these thousands of cases your friend is helping to prosecute since I see you want to “help people make informed decision” as you say.
I hope you will understand that I am not focusing on who you are or changing the subject by requesting this. I think when you make a statement I should be able to ask you to back that up just like you asked me to back up statements I make like where did I get 9% figure. When you asked me this i did not accuse you of changing subject. What will you say.
Jimmy…
I appreciated your response… here is my understanding from what your said….
“As for using credit cards with MMA, I am completely unfamiliar with that. I can’t see how it’s possible to beat doing it yourself this way, either, because:”
I agree with you. Anything one can do themselves would be paying anyone else to show them. From my understanding the MMA just shows you the “best” use of your money, that it takes into account variable such as length of the loan, %, ect to determine that sometimes just plunking your extra money on that high % credit card is not always the best use on your money… that people can save much more money in interest by applying it (in their words) strategically.
“1) Credit cards charge 3% for cash advances, plus the high interest rates from day 1.”
Ha… I am very familiar with this. And this was my first dispute to the agent. But was I was told is that you aren’t taking an advance on your credit line… just using it to pay your daily bills instead of your own cash…. basically creating an extra paycheck because credit cards have that 30 day grace period… and then rotating your checking account thru the credit line and paying 0% by paying off the balance monthly.
I think when I saw that I thought… hmm… creative. Definitely would require some discipline but I am sure after the first couple months one would get the hang of it.
“2) Anyone using a credit card is already getting a “float”, so how can using MMA get you a better float?”
I agree. This was information I had not previously considered when it came to using OPM as a means of saving interest. Knowing this information… one could now use this simple technique themselves without purchasing the MMA. And I thought well if they show you this simple way I hadn’t considered…. maybe there is more.
“3) The $3500 MMA fee, plus it’s interest cost will never be recaptured by any savings MMA might get for you over doing it yourself.”
I agree with this as well. That is a chunk of money to pay someone for some software to direct you how to use your money. That is why I was trying to figure out if someone would realize the investment in return. Obviously the software uses math in a much more complicated manner than I could devise.
“Do you honestly believe that MMA will pay off a mortgage in 1/3 to 1/2 the time with little to no change in one’s spending habits? Something has to give.”
I think that was the point of the “sale” That they could show you how using the same income you have currently (in the words of Dean Grazziosi) you can think a little different… and get it paid off much sooner.
Now I will admit that I don’t know the snowball debt method… but I am guessing it has to do with taking ones extra money to pay off a specific bill, once that is paid off to then take that money and apply it to another bill.. attacking it with all the new additional funds. I am pretty sure I have heard Ramsey speak of this on his show. Is this the snowball method? And I haven’t seen your spreadsheets cause it all turns into mumbo jumbo after reading all these blogs, but are you saying that this method is just as affective?
I appreciate your time. You are obviously very passionate about this information. I prefer your open mindedness to…. well.. other people… I know if I state names that it will cause some retaliation
Oh and Whack… why are you stuck on HELOCs? The version they showed us wouldn’t use a HELOC cause as you pointed out… one has to immediately pay interest and typically the % is higher than the mortgage… well in Bonhoeffer’s case it was less. I would think that would be a done deal. I have my mortgage fixed at 6.5% and my HELOC could pay off my mortgage cause I have it paid down quite a bit, but like you say the % on my HELOC is 8.5%. Now I do get some “promotional” offers but they never seem to compare. I just have that sitting there as my safety net. Oh…. and I didn’t pay any fees to set that up through Wachovia. I know you are correct in that some financial institutions do charge some fees for the HELOC, but mine didn’t. I think when if comes to you…. well… you analyze a little over-zealously.
But then that is how you get these in-depth responses. Have a good one!
“You say, “Where did you get this figure? 9% is not what most sources claim.” What are most sources claiming and where are you getting your figures?”
When you say loan default you are considering those who are only 30 days late, I can see 9% with 30 days. I’m absolutely sure these people should be spending $3500 on unnecessary software.
“You say I am attacking messenger because I have no logical arguments. What can I say? I told you what I say is my opinion. If you think my arguments are not logical that is your opinion. I think they are logical. How am I attacking messenger?”
By demanding my name, for what purpose would you need my name if you do not plan to further attack my credibility?
“You say, “My friend works for a law office that does nothing but prosecute these companies, there are literally thousands of cases that are producing costly settlements and even jail time in some fraud cases.” Very good. What is name of your friend’s law office so I can see what he is doing. This would be very helpful and interesting information for me. Thank you very much for giving me this. I have not heard about thousands of companies being prosecuted so I would like to know about this very much.”
http://www.mortgagefraudblog.com/
This site tracks only a few of the bigger cases. Just google “mortgage fraud” or “mortgage fraud cases” for more
“Also, can you show me other discussion boards or something where you are also helping people avoid these thousands of cases your friend is helping to prosecute since I see you want to “help people make informed decision” as you say.”
I don’t claim to help people avoid mortgage fraud, I show people how and why UFF is a scam, you don’t seem to have a rebuttal except “I don’t think it’s a scam” You don’t refute that UFF lies. You just claim that the end justifies the means – it does not because there is an easier free method.
“I hope you will understand that I am not focusing on who you are or changing the subject by requesting this. I think when you make a statement I should be able to ask you to back that up just like you asked me to back up statements I make like where did I get 9% figure.”
When you say loan default most people think “foreclosure” while technically 30 days late is default it almost never results in foreclosure unless they go 60-90-120 days late.
I admit foreclosures are up, but I’m not sure what your point is, UFF gets you more in debt then if you used a simpler, easier, free method.
“When you asked me this i did not accuse you of changing subject. What will you say.”
What does that mean? “what will you say”
You have yet to tell us why a company built on lies and a complete waste of $3500 is not a scam.
You respond in generalities about the mortgage market that have nothing to do with how the UFF software.
You can’t seem to show any math that shows how UFF can beat doing it yourself and using less time for free.
Just a mild correction, Whackashil is right on the fact that the banks are going after basically everyone they can to recover money.
I’m lazy and it’s complicated, but they’re not prosecutions – they’re civil litigation. The government prosecutes as well, I showed him a large case which I’m sure he’ll link that took place in MO, but it’s not that uncommon to see the government involved. It’s becoming a very trendy thing for government prosecutor’s to hit though, so I suspect you’ll see more of it.
You won’t hear about civil litigation because they don’t want you to hear much about it. Nine times out of ten it’s settled before it ever hits a docket, so little if anything is available to the public.
Pathos said:
“Ha… I am very familiar with this. And this was my first dispute to the agent. But was I was told is that you aren’t taking an advance on your credit line… just using it to pay your daily bills instead of your own cash…. basically creating an extra paycheck because credit cards have that 30 day grace period… and then rotating your checking account thru the credit line and paying 0% by paying off the balance monthly.
I think when I saw that I thought… hmm… creative. Definitely would require some discipline but I am sure after the first couple months one would get the hang of it.”
Charging $3500 to do this for you is ridiculous. The floating salary just does not save enough money to justify this fee.
“ That is a chunk of money to pay someone for some software to direct you how to use your money. That is why I was trying to figure out if someone would realize the investment in return. Obviously the software uses math in a much more complicated manner than I could devise.”
We have been analyzing mathematical scenarios for months now, UFF just can’t beat the simple method of just pre-paying without a float. The huge fee just can’t be made up.
“Now I will admit that I don’t know the snowball debt method… but I am guessing it has to do with taking ones extra money to pay off a specific bill, once that is paid off to then take that money and apply it to another bill.. attacking it with all the new additional funds. I am pretty sure I have heard Ramsey speak of this on his show. Is this the snowball method?
And I haven’t seen your spreadsheets cause it all turns into mumbo jumbo after reading all these blogs, but are you saying that this method is just as affective?”
No it is much more affective. $10,000 more affective on average.
“I appreciate your time. You are obviously very passionate about this information. I prefer your open mindedness to…. well.. other people… I know if I state names that it will cause some retaliation”
I am open minded to others, but when they do not use logic or fact and instead use hearsay and testimonials their opinions are not supported.
“Oh and Whack… why are you stuck on HELOCs? The version they showed us wouldn’t use a HELOC cause as you pointed out… one has to immediately pay interest and typically the % is higher than the mortgage… well in Bonhoeffer’s case it was less.”
Even in Bonhoeffers rare case, UFF came out way behind the snowball method. You see, you can still take advantage of a low rate HELOC when you do it yourself, and it is still way easier then using software.
Thanks Johnson,
Here is the case he was talking about: http://www.mortgagefraudblog.com/index.php/search/results/18df547addc3ad4659de49eaae02339d/
WhackAShill,
Why can you not provide website of your friend’s law office firm instead of link to mortgage fraud blog. I can find these by googling just like you did. I thought you had friend who is prosecuting these companies. Is it too hard to send website of his law office?
You say, “By demanding my name, for what purpose would you need my name if you do not plan to further attack my credibility?” I told you already if you think it is attacking you to ask for your real name I am sorry. What else do you want me to say?
You say, ““When you asked me this i did not accuse you of changing subject. What will you say. What does that mean? “what will you say.” It means when you asked me where I got my 9% figure of mortgage defaults I answered your question and did not accuse you of attacking me or changing the subject like you do. When I tell you what will you say I mean will you again start accusing me of attacking you or something.
You say “You have yet to tell us why a company built on lies and a complete waste of $3500 is not a scam.” I will try one more time. I thought I made this clear already. I disagree with you that MMA is built on lies and complete waste of money. I made many statements explaining my disagreement on this already. I will not use MMA but I do not think it is based on lies and is a scam. I will not refinance my home mortgage either even though I get mail all the time telling me how it will help me, but I will not say these people are lying even though I think a good case could be made that they are, and will not accuse them of scam and taking advantage of people even though I think good case can be made for that too. This is my opinion. You are titled to yours. I do not like when you say people who disagree with you are uninformed or dumb or naive or shill or scam.
You say “You respond in generalities about the mortgage market that have nothing to do with how the UFF software.” I disagree. I say my comments are not generalities. Everything I write is very specific. You are the one who makes generalities like “When you say loan default most people think “foreclosure” while technically 30 days late is default it almost never results in foreclosure unless they go 60-90-120 days late.” I think this is generality. I got my facts on this from news report that was specific and you talk about what you think most people think. Is this not generality? I am not attacking you I am disagreeing with you. I hope this is obvious.
You say “You can’t seem to show any math that shows how UFF can beat doing it yourself and using less time for free.” I never said I could. Based on JimmyDaGeek’s analysis I can do better with HELOC which I will use but not with UFF. I agree I can do it myself for less money and I am. What I say is I will not tell other people who choose to use UFF that they are making bad decision and people are lying to them and they are being scammed. I have already said this many time I thought.
I am trying to stay on subject of MMA product and not talk about Hitler and oil change and apple orchard and getting and person who qualifies for HELOC rate lower than mortgage can also get mortgage for lower rater and friend in law office who is prosecuting mortgage fraud and all these other things. I hope you will see this.
JimmyDaGeek I figured something out. I will get HELOC at 2.99% for six months. After this is over and rate goes to 1% below prime and will go to another bank and find another introductory offer for 6 months and keep doing this and using HELOC interest rate to pay off my mortgage. How does this strategy sound? I have now 2.99% HELOC so I will get started using your spreadsheet. Thank you.
WhackAShill sorry but Anonymous above is me. I think you can figure this out.
Someone messed this spreadsheet up….can you fix it Jimmy
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pszjmlNnSFKgsNpkCb9sHSg&hl=en
Well… WhackAShill I appreciate your response. There have been many times where I thought you were just “stuck” on… “I am right… they are wrong”
I am still investigating all of this. I actually spoke to the agent today and she advised me that Glen Beck is a supporter of the MMA.
Bonhoeffer:
1) The spreadsheet is not messed up. Just change the yellow/orange boxes to suit your needs.
2) Getting HELOCs is not like getting credit cards. Many no-fee HELOCs will charge you closing costs if you close your HELOC within a few years after opening it. Also, do you think you will be able to keep getting great intro rates? If you are going to use the HELOC, don’t complicate it.
Parthos:
Glen Beck was PAID by U1st to speak at their convention. That does not mean he knows anything about MMA. Do you always buy something just because a clueless celebrity is paid to shill for it? Dave Ramsey is against credit cards because people use them to get into debt. That does not make credit cards bad. They are a tool that people misuse. If you want to waste $3500 to buy MMA because you want a nanny, that’s your business. Don’t buy something just on someone’s say-so.
Bonhoeffer said:
“Why can you not provide website of your friend’s law office firm instead of link to mortgage fraud blog. I can find these by googling just like you did. I thought you had friend who is prosecuting these companies. Is it too hard to send website of his law office? “
Johnson is my friend I was talking about not sure he wants to give out his web site or discuss any cases because they are confidential.
“ I disagree with you that MMA is built on lies and complete waste of money.”
The United First Financial version of the MMA is a scam because the marketing leads people to believe that the HELOC or LOC is savings tens of thousands of dollars, that is a huge lie and is the only reason anyone would buy the software.
“I will not use MMA but I do not think it is based on lies and is a scam.”
That’s exactly what it is, it’s based on lies and is a scam.
“ I will not refinance my home mortgage either even though I get mail all the time telling me how it will help me, but I will not say these people are lying even though I think a good case could be made that they are, and will not accuse them of scam and taking advantage of people even though I think good case can be made for that too. This is my opinion.”
In many cases refinancing can help people, also in many cases it does not. I argue that every single person that buys UFF could have done it easier and for free on their own using less time and effort and getting better results.
“You are titled to yours. I do not like when you say people who disagree with you are uninformed or dumb or naive or shill or scam.”
The math proves my opinion, the math proves yours is wrong. UFF is never a good idea, period. Math is objective, not subjective as opinions are.
“You say “You can’t seem to show any math that shows how UFF can beat doing it yourself and using less time for free.” I never said I could. Based on JimmyDaGeek’s analysis I can do better with HELOC which I will use but not with UFF. I agree I can do it myself for less money and I am. What I say is I will not tell other people who choose to use UFF that they are making bad decision and people are lying to them and they are being scammed. I have already said this many time I thought.”
Your saying its ok to buy a rotten apple for $50 when you could buy a dozen fresh ones for $5. I totally disagree.
On the spreadsheet above….how do you add the bi-weekly paychecks? The MMA is beating this scenerio due to the extra 2 paychecks per year.
To convert bi-weekly payments to a monthly payment, (bi-weekly) * 26 / 12
I had my analysis ran with MMA and it beats your spreadsheet from above by several years. I can’t see how you can beat it.
$500,000 mortgage @6% new loan 360 month
interest only payement $2500
$1300 discretionary income
Line of credit $20,000 @7% 0 balance
$3000 bi-weekly paycheck
MMA is saying 14.3 years i think. I can’t get your spreadsheet to beat 18.5 years.
Can someone help me out?
Please post your analysis as James Barnes did above.
Sam,
The salary float that the MMA uses at the VERY best can save you $32.50 per month. $6500/mo salary can cancel $32.50 interest at 6%.
Information provided by UFF agents have shown that the MMA usually only cancels one-third of the “best case scenario,” so likely you will save around $10 bucks a month using a salary float.
Needless to say, $10 a month can not save 4.2 years on a mortgage. Especially whan that ten bucks does not cover the $3500 fee plus interest.
I am waiting for your analysis post because I am assuming the MMA is accounting for more discretionary income after one of your debts is paid off.
Sam
The spreadsheet got corrupted. I fixed it and plugged your numbers in. There is a problem with the scenario you presented. In an interest-only loan, the interest payment never changes since you pay no principal. My spreadsheet assumes a normal mortgage payment which you don’t have.
So to make it work, I first assumed you have another $500 to make a normal mortgage payment in addition to the $1300 discretionary income, then it takes 175 months or 14.58 years to pay off the mortgage. BUT, if I subtract that $500 from your $1300 instead, leaving $800, it takes 216 months or 18 years.
So, Sam, we need to see a copy of the MMA report with its assumptions.
“$500,000 mortgage @6% new loan 360 month
interest only payement $2500
$1300 discretionary income
Line of credit $20,000 @7% 0 balance
$3000 bi-weekly paycheck”
$1300 discretionary income based on what? Monthly? Bi-weekly?
I guarantee you the difference you are seeing is comparing MMA with $1300 per month discretionary income PLUS two $3000 checks per year versus standard prepayment of $1300 per month. Amazing what $6000 extra per year will do in ruining a comparison. UFF agents try this trick all the time to make MMA seem wonderful when it is merely just another prepayment method….and an expensive one at that.
What can’t MMA reps EVER compare apples to apples?
Nice catch, calvin. That extra $6000 per year equates to an extra $500 a month – just what I need. And there is no mention of any “idle” cash sitting in a checking or savings account for MMA to suck in.
We’ll just have to wait for Sam to post the MMA information.
It seems our friend James has removed the link to his 6 Credit Card debt scenario. Is there a chance to collect all the actual UFF analyses into a central location for reference? Or maybe to compare future versions to see if the “mathematical algorithms” change over time?
jimmy, i would say the very first thing to check ANY UFF analysis is the bi-weekly income coupled with monthly discretionary income being compared to monthly income and discretionary income prepayments. They absolutely LOVE that trick. You’d think they’d stop that after being caught lying time and time again, but they really don’t seem to care about lying, since that is their entire marketing strategy.
Late2Game, they would need a mathematical algorithm in the first place to change it. There is no algorithm, it’s just prepayment. The analysis does not mimic the software, as expense and mortgage due dates (within the month) are not taken into account, which they would have to be to predict the miniscule “HELOC shuffle” savings.
The saddest thing of all is these jokers are trying to get people to use credit cards now in place of HELOCs as HELOCs have dried up. While potentially exposing themselves to less risk in bankruptcy with an unsecured line of credit, a credit card and the MMA is a recipe for disaster. Especially as inefficiently as the UFF’s version seems to be. I wouldn’t be suprised to see people extending their original terms of their mortgage given a few hiccups along the way. 20-30% interest adds up quickly, especially on large sums of money.
UFF = cult
calvin,
I am well aware that the lackings of the “algorithm” developed by an “aeronautical engineer” (and now with “factorial math”) have been shown in many threads. (Off topic, how do you even keep up with all the threads/forums/blogs that I have seen you post in?)
Since UFF is planning on upgrading MMA (like for using credit cards like you mentioned), it would be interesting to compare actual analyses done, like James’ pdf he has since deleted, with those of future versions. You visit many threads, so maybe you have seen more analyses posted other than the typical agent’s, “I plugged in your numbers and MMA said X.X years. Beat that!” which does nothing to help compare the actual values entered.
Of course UFF is going to set the bar higher so they can “Guarantee” results. But it makes it easier to show, as JimmyDaGeek’s spreadsheets, that it is inefficient when all the inputs are known.
“Of course UFF is going to set the bar higher so they can “Guarantee” results.”
The UFF does not need to set the bar higher to guarantee their results. You could back their results. They aren’t guaranteeing their results are better than what you could do on you own, or versus any other method. They are merely guaranteeing you that if your income doesn’t decrease, your expenses don’t increase, and if you qualify for a HELOC as used in the analysis, that you will payoff your loan in the stated amount of time.
That guarantee equates to they are guaranteeing 1+1=2. As long as their analysis software correctly calculates the payoff given a certain amount of discretionary income, they are fine. If Jimmy or I show someone they can do better by thousands of dollars, that doesn’t change a thing in terms of getting your money back. That’s why I stress that the guarantee is worthless.
As for keeping track of all the threads, some have RSS feeds, and many get mentioned in the thread at Fatwallet, so I’ve book marked them. These liars tried to scam a close friend of mine, so exposing them for the liars and outright crooks some of them are has become quite the hobby of mine. I can honestly say I’ve kept over 100 people from buying this crap, and that’s just the ones that have contacted me.
ps. the algorithm author was originally described as a “mathematical engineer.” the fun part of this debate has been hearing all the claims about the algorithm and the author:
mathematical engineer
Harvard business school
MIT
GE propulsion labs
NASA
NSA (apparantly the NSA uses the algorithm it’s so powerful! HA!)
$2.5 million to develop (a prepay method?!?!?!?!)
27 pages of code (in 36 size font maybe)
and now…”factorial math”
Another deceptive ploy I’ve been seeing more and more has to do with discretionary income. When UFF agents make claims that the software can pay off mortgages in half the time with $50 discretionary income, they ignore the fact that there is already a great opportunity to increase this discretionary income once the persons credit card or other debt is paid off in a few years.
The software does not increase the discretionary income, the users own money does, yet agents acclaim the great savings to the software. Once this other debt is paid off, the $50 discretionary turns into $100, $200, or even more.
Still waiting for the UFF analysis Sam…….
I was thinking a “honeypot” of sorts to collect these actual analyses would be good info to have when people like James Barnes make the false/ignorant claims they so often do. Alas, I guess my desire to collect analyses generated by agents is fruitless, since it is spelled out in the Independant Agent Guidelines that it is forbidden.
Has anyone read the stuff UFF puts out? Interesting indeed.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=+site:agent.u1stfinancial.com+agent.u1stfinancial.com
Apparently, it has been spelled out for clients that they are not to use the phrase “No change in lifestlyle” but it is acceptable to use “Little to no change in lifestyle”. I won’t post them all here, but their “Back Office” material sure is easy to access.
-L2G
Isn’t the back office site great? I’ve saved a few forms and memos and presentations, just in case. UFF themselves are very careful to limit their liability for anything their army of under-educated sales drones come up with. The agent agreement could be boiled down to “If you say anything outside our script, or say anything to the media at all, we don’t know you. Sign here.”
Craig, any chance you can share those materials with me?
diver_calvin2 AT yahoo DOT com
Thanks!
Link sent. If anyone else wants it, let me know.
My favourite parts from the Policy and Procedures Guide:
*****
Independent Contractor Status: I acknowledge that I am an Independent Contractor, and am not the purchaser of a franchise or a business opportunity. I am not in an employer/employee relationship, agency, partnership, or joint venture with UFirst.
No media contact: I shall not attempt to contact media or respond to media inquiries regarding UFirst, its products or services, or my independent UFirst business for any reason. All contact from the media or inquiries made by any type of media shall be immediately referred to the Compliance Department of UFirst. Violators are subject to immediate termination of their Independent Agent Agreement and or applicable legal action.
No unauthorized claims: I am fully responsible for all of my verbal and written statements made by me regarding UFirst products, services, and the Marketing and Compensation Plan which are not expressly contained in official UFirst materials. I agree to indemnify UFirst and its directors, officers, employees, and agents, and hold them harmless from any and all liability including judgments, civil penalties, refunds, attorney fees, court costs, or lost business incurred by UFirst as a result of my unauthorized representations or actions. I will further make no claim of income, whether earned or potentially available, in any unauthorized manner. I will neither state nor imply any type of relationship between UFirst and any other company or product that is not specifically established through UFirst marketing venues.
*****
Further, the MMA Agent Training Guide is hilarious. It jogs your memory with examples of people in your personal “network” you could market to, and it shows you how to fill in the MMA worksheet – that’s it. Oh, and a “Activation Document Checklist”. Item #1 on that list?
1. $3,500.00 Money Merge Account Activation Fee made payable to United First Financial
I also searched for the word “amortization” in the Agent Training Guide. Not one mention of it.
“Compensation information CANNOT be made available to the general public. No exceptions.” – From Agent Guideline Letter 05-25-2007.pdf
Yet how hard is it to find this link directly from UFF?
Just Google “UFirst_Progressive_Compensation_Plan.pdf” or “UnderstandingUFF Progressive Compensation Plan.pdf”
—
From the “UFirstBlogGuidelines.pdf”:
“Comments sent to http://www.ufirstforum.com and official company forums are reviewed for compliance before posting. Information posted anywhere else without review could be inaccurate, potentially turning away clients and causing them to hold you and UFirst liable for any misconceptions or misinformation.”
And
“For legal reasons, do not refer to mortgage programs in Australia, the United Kingdom or elsewhere.”
The UFF goes to great length trying to distance itself from many of the innacruate claims made by it’s agents, but it pretty much invalidates its indepedence with its boilerplate presentation hosted directly on the UFF site. it contains many of the same lies, half truths, omissions, etc that the agents make. If somebody who actually had damages to claim against their agent had the right lawyer, my guess is they would be able to break the wall between the agent and the UFF pretty easily. I don’t see anyone ever having enough damages to really need to break down that wall, but if the general population of clients ever woke up and saw the light of what a collosal waste of money the program is, a class action suit would benefit from that wall coming down.
Don’t forget to check out their “university” documents also, like their FAQs/Objections (MMA 104) document.
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.ufirstuniversity.com&hl=en&filter=0
“Objection 4: This seems too good to be true.
An excellent method for dealing with this objection is the Feel, Felt, Found method…”
I understand that many UFF agents FEEL their product is worth its absurd $3,500 price tag.
I FELT the MMA was worth something else.
I have FOUND that math is math, and MMA is worthless.
It seems this was one MMA thread I missed. L2G, how kind of UFirst to make their training documents (100 pages, wow!) so easily available. I have some late night reading ahead of me, this will probably give me material for the next fews weeks, if not months.
Late2game Do you think for 1 minute that ernst young would had given u1st the award they did if you could do this on your own,please research that award and you will see how foolish your comments are.Compound intrest is the 8th wonder of the world he who understands it earns it, he who does not pays it.
Bruce,
You should know that Ernst and Young gave an award to the CREATORS of UFF and not the product itself. The award was for ENTREPRENEUR of the year in the Utah region.
Anyone that can get people to pay $3500 for a useless product is a true ENTREPRENEUR in my book!
You should also know that when we emailed the ethics division of Ernst and Young, they adamantly denied endorsing UFF and that they only sponsor the award. And that they have no control of the selection or judging of the contest.
If you are so confident that UFF beats do-it-yourself then post an analysis from UFF. I will show you how easy it is to beat.
Bruce:
Anyone who talks about mortgages and compound interest immediately shows her ignorance about finance. I’m surprised you didn’t tell us that mortgages are front-loaded, too. Regular mortgages never, ever use compound interest and are not front-loaded. The interest you pay each month is calculated on the money you owe from last month. Each month, you start fresh.
OTH, if you were to invest your money for the long-term, instead of paying off your mortgage, you would make a lot more money using compound interest and reinvested dividends.
Bruce, WhackAShill and Jimmy just about covered my intended reply. If you want to prove the MMA, start with numbers. Post your HELOC, CC, mortgage, and any other account transactions and balances for the past few months. Then we can scrutinize and see how much the MMA is saving you. You can remove all personal information.
We’ve heard all the UFF marketing – it’s crap, and easily refuted. Posting actual account transactions is the last possible argument UFF agents could have, but most of us know that those transactions will show how a simple DIY approach will beat the MMA. If you think the numbers will prove us wrong, post away.
Bruce,
I can easily one up your claim…..Do you honestly believe Earnst and Young gave them the award? They sponsor the event, they do not judge it. Aparantly, YOU need to research the award.
Everyone knows the UFF is a prepayment method disguised as HELOC magic. It’s been proven time and time again.
Cal
Bruce,
I DID research this “award” and if you think it in anyway signifies Ernst & Young’s approval of the product, then you are mistaken. Looking at other regoinal winners from years past shows that this award is open to any entrepenuer, even those whose business models might even show up on “60 Minutes” for being deceptive pyramid schemes. The founder of Amway also won a regoinal award in 1992. (You can search all past winners here – http://eoyhof.ey.com/SearchHallofFame.aspx) Do you think E&Y approves of Amway’s products and/or selling schemes? What about USANA Health Sciences (a 2003 E&Y winner)? Or Arbonne International (2006)? Or XanGo (2006)? Or Reliv International (2003)?
There are many other MLM-type businesses that have also won E&Y Entrepenuer awards. Does that mean their products are good or endorsed by E&Y? Nope.
More interesting stuff from UFF materials:
From the “United First Financial Training and Marketing Guide”
-”Use of the NBC Las Vegas broadcast, which contains a discussion of the Money Merge Account system, through any medium is strictly prohibited.” (pg. 78)
-”43. Why can’t I just use a savings account instead of applying for a HELOC? The Money Merge Account(TM) concept will not benefit someone using their own money from a checking or savings account because the Money Merge Account system is designed to USE THE BANK’S MONEY, not your money. The program doesn’t function based on what a person can save, and it does far better than what a person can do by applying their savings directly to the first mortgage.” (ibid. 43, Emphasis added)
-Under UNACCEPTALBE PHRASES on page 77 “Use the bank’s money to pay off your home”.
L2G – I’m laughing my ass off right now. Nice catch on the double-standard.
“…the Money Merge Account system is designed to USE THE BANK’S MONEY, not your money.”
But the phrase “Use the bank’s money to pay off your home” is unacceptable.
Basically, let’s fill our agents’ heads full of lies, then send them out on sales calls. When people call them out for using the “Use the bank’s money to pay off your home” lie, they’ve broken the agent agreement and they’re on their own.
Brilliant. You can see why the UFF founders won some kind of award.
I’d like the link too.
scott.larsen at juno.com
Thanks.
Sent.
If anyone else wants it, let me know at itscraighansen AT gmail DOT com and we can cut down on off-topic posts here. The double-standard of teaching UFF agents lies that they are not allowed to repeat to potential clients is to good to dilute.
What happened here…where did everybody go! This is was way too good to let go. C’mon gang!
UFirst agent activity online is way down, and those we do see are not exactly “the cream of the crop”.
UFirst has been warning agents not to respond to blogs for a year. Perhaps agents are finally listening. More likely, they’re tired of looking stupid. Another possibility is many have moved on to other MLM opportunities because they can’t sell the MMA.
I guess Jim Moore (UFF branch manager) and his top-notch agent squad Craig Hamilton, Thomas Hamilton, and John Dillard didn’t get the message in this mesmerizing dialogue. Craig, you’re my hero.
I’ve been approached by 3 different people to learn more about this, and possibly recommend it to my customers. The most convincing of the Kool-Aid drinkers are accountants and loan officers, because they use their positions of authority and access to their clients’ financial information to augment their credibility.
I have turned down all 3 with prejudice. Not only does the MLM nature of it set my Spidey-Sense to tingling, but I resent any effort to make money management magical, mysterious, or more complicated than it already is. As a retail banker, I spend time every day explaining and clarifying banking for my customers. I help them to save money and simplify their lives. Programs like the MMA obfuscate the basic, boring truths of personal finance: Spend less than you earn, pay more than the minimum, budget your discretionary expenditures, don’t take on unnecessary debt, and beware of short cuts!
@AverageJoe
Thank you for stating the case in a plain way.
The salespeople called mortgage brokers and loan officers, who can’t do much math beyond multiplication and division, are impressed with their own titles. Consequently, they think MMA must be all its cracked up to be because it’s beyond them to figure out why doing it yourself is better than MMA.
Too many people are financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate and intellectually lazy, for which MMA finds the right audience.
I have read all the posts and all your rantings about the absurdity of using the MMA, and I have come to the conclusion that you have absolutely NO IDEA how the MMA works. It is also obvious that you have NOT done your due diligence to try to find out how it DOES work. You surely are aware now that you don’t even have to have a HELOC for the MMMA to work, and quite well, I might add! Also, I see NO mention that it pays off other debt besides your mortgage as well. You really need to do thorough research into the product before you run your mouth about what you THINK you know. For one, it makes you look stupid and uninformed, which obviously you are!!!
Terry – Where have we met before? So many blogs discussing MMA to keep track of them all.
I see you’ve resorted to name calling, any anti-MMAer is stupid? Why don’t you share with us a better explanation of the system? From many of these conversations, I conclude that your target mark (the object of a con) must himself be pretty ignorant. Perhaps that’s the only way to make the rule “pay down your debts from the highest interest rate to the lowest” so incomprehensible that the thought of spending $3500 to do this looks good in comparison. I’m sure there are some people out there who look at two debts, $10,000 at 18%, with a $200/mo payment, and $9,000 at 0% with a $250/mo payment, and simply can’t decide what to do. They finally choose to pay off the $9000, because as any good agent would tell you, “that frees up more cash flow.”
Still I applaud how UFirst trains people to make the simple math regarding interest and payments so convoluted, that they then can sell a $3500 system to avoid it. Truly amazing, they should give awards for such nonsense. Oh, wait, they did. Congrats.
Terry,
Have you really read ALL the comments to this post? With the site redesign, it only shows a small subset of the 467+ comments and you have to click through to read them all. If you did, then you must have enjoyed reading about James Barnes’ challenge to pay off multiple debts with only $50 disc. income and how he failed miserably thanks to JimmyDaGeek. We understand how the MMA works, have seen the Demo Accounts, know that it inefficiently pays off non-mortgage debt. We know that even when the rates are favorable to moving debt to HELOC (if % rate is lower than 1st mortgage) the Money Merge Account is still inefficient. We also know that UFF states that while credit cards and savings/checkings accounts can be used in place of a HELOC, “it is recommended that you obtain a HELOC, once qualified, for maximum program advantages.” Logic and actual math show that if the HELOC example is not the fastest way to pay down debt, then the other examples are even slower.
For anyone still following the comments to this post, JoeTaxpayer has a very interesting post about the current version of the MMA. It is a good read.
http://www.blog.joetaxpayer.com/archives/1036
Joe………… I never intended or even considered being able to change your mind about the Money Merge Account. You have your point of view and me and thousands of other people have our points of view. Let’s see where this all takes us in about 2 -3 years, OK? When United First Financial’s Money Merge Account is Mainstream America maybe you will have a different take on the whole subject. Until then, enjoy your reading of those 100 pages of information on our site, I promise you, it’s extremely informative. If you run out of information get back with me and I can hook you up with a plethora of more training material.
Well, Terry, I’m thinking you guys do have a few years to go, with all the million dollar scams out there, the likes of Madoff and his kind, few in any position with the power to do anything have the time to go after the $3500 scams. No matter how popular it gets, the numbers don’t change, I recall a story that some Pope or President wanted to declare pi to be equal to 22/7. That didn’t stick, either. One of my favorite passages from George Orwell’s 1984:
‘How can I help it?’ he blubbered. ‘How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.’
‘Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.’
Surely there are thousands, even hundreds of thousands who will be convinced that 2+2=5. I will never be one of them. The UFF training manual should offer 1984 as an introduction, it will help your ministers of finance understand their message more clearly.
Terry, I’ll take that bet. The MMA will never be “Mainstream America”, because too many people are smart enough to see through it.
In fact, the MMA is already in decline. UFirst is making it easier for agents to get promotions and qualify for bonus pools, because people are leaving. Jaime Buckley and his “Jubilee Project” have already left for Sydney Financial Group. Thousands of other agents have just stopped trying.
You can probably reach me for years at itscraighansen -at- gmail -dot- com (not my primary account, but a good secondary one with good spam filtering). If UFirst is mainstream by 2011, you can tell me all about it. Go ahead and email me your own contact info, and we’ll see who is right and who is wrong in 2-3 years.
I am living witness of what the mma does.. It works and it’s worth every cent.
My best friend owned 10 years on his home and in one year time has paid off his house and now is paying off his second house.
So what ever your thoughts are and your wrong information you are putting out, you need to do some research and listen to the reality of what is happening to real people who are in the program.
If you can save thousands of dollars in your mortgage interest.. Isn’t it worth to pay for a program that can do this and allow you and your family to become debt free in much shorter time.
Thank you for allowing this comment.
God bless
Jose – your friend had 10 years left but paid it off in one year? You want us to believe this was the doing of MMA and not your friend making huge prepayments to his mortgage?
What wrong information? We (any ‘nay-sayer’) usually talk in terms of actual numbers, not speculation or hyperbole.
No Way, Jose (sorry,
, I couldn’t resist)
If you are living proof, how about giving us numbers? I’ll give you some numbers. Why would you want to take a $15,000 haircut to save money by buying MMA, instead of doing it yourself?
I have never said that you can’t save money with MMA, you just don’t save as much. MMA seems to be designed for the financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate, and intellectually lazy. People making over $10k a month have posted saying they couldn’t put two nickels together before they bought the software. That’s pretty sad.
What do Madoff and UFF have in common? They both promise things that are too good to be true by people who don’t understand them and are blinded by greed. Like Madoff, UFF too will have its day in court. Then you’ll see people like Terry fade away only to return when the next MLM/Ponzi scheme takes hold of them.
The initial article which spawned this discussion is not accurate in many ways. Just to name one, HELOCs do not generally cost anything to open. There may be some, but every line of credit I have ever had or known about was NO FEES. So many other statements way too numerous to name here show the lack of understanding on the part of this author. I would suggest to him that he visit the company and learn first-hand what the Money Merge Account System is all about – and I guarantee he will join others who were skeptic at first and are now extolling the virtues of the company, its leadership, and the Money Merge Account System that is changing lives across America. Time will tell the story!
I’m unaware of any HELOC that does not have fees. Mine was free the first year, now $25/yr.
But I’d not focus on that. I’d focus on the fact, yes, fact, that UFF’s own video showing the first month’s transactions easily show that UFF’s own sophisticated algorithms are flawed, and do not save every possible dollar of interest, let alone every cent. Most of the presentation material UFF and its agents offer is a combination of exaggeration, lies, and math that I could dispute when I was promoted from the fourth grade.
You suggest he visit? Why? Will UFF’s offices somehow change the fact that one and one is two? Or will the obfuscation be so great that no one can escape it? You agents areso proud to say “it’s only math.” Indeed, only it’s math that MMA gets wrong every time. Even if MMA were free, it doesn’t get ahead of simple prepayments. I have screenshots on MMA software to prove it.
So I did my research on these accelerated mortgage payment soft wares.
-There are about 5 of them including, United First Financial (UFF). UFF is the most expensive at a whopping $3500. The cheapest is $995. This means a majority must go to commissions paid on tier level output.
-your monthly net income must exceed your total monthly debts in order for it to work.
-Need a HELOC or line a credit with a low interest rate. If you use a HELOC, there may be tax advantages.
-Paying off 10-15 years faster is obtainable if your mortgage is around $200-300K and you pay an extra $400 a month. If you have a larger mortgage and pay less to principal, paying off WILL take longer.
-if you suck at paying your bills on time, have multiple credit card balances at high interest rates, or too lazy to research how to help yourself then a software prgram is for you.
To me, paying down your 1st Mortgage quicker does not need an software. The ONLY good advantage with the software is seeing exactly how much years you cut off by paying more principal at a monthly basis. I’m sure someone good with excel can create a formula for this.
Simple rules to follow:
-Consolidate all credit card debt into one low interest rate line (personal or HELOC). Credit cards can have 20% interest rate. If you have a line at 5-6%, you are saving a lot
- Make a list of items you spend and from there, budget yourself. Example…eat more at home and bring home lunch, shop around for lower insurance premiums, rent movies instead of going to theater, use food coupons
-keep credit card balances to a minimum or pay it all off at the end of the month
-with the money extra saved from budgeting and consolidating debt, pay directly to principal on 1st mortgage. The more you pay to principal, the faster you pay off mortgage.
With a little research, you can put the $3500 software fee directly to the principal and you are on your way to paying off your 1st mortgage quicker.
I saw a request for the spreadsheet I offer.
It’s linked on the Money Merge Account link page on my blog. (Clicking on my name above will get you there.)
I am happy to respond to any questions regarding the sheet. For what it’s worth, the sheet does not suggest any HELOC use. Nor does it employ “factorial math”, I trust you can line up your debts and pay off 20% cards before trying to prepay your mortgage. It does, however, have its share of sophisticated algorithms, as it uses Excel’s financial functions for the time value of money. If the $149 home version of Excel is too pricey, openoffice is free.
All I have to say is Ernst & Young gave the company and product the #1 Financail Services Award for 2008. They are the largest accounting firm in the world and they are the firm doing the audit for the Gov Bail Out money and they did their research for years now and it is a proven system and product and the company is going to be another microsoft. Ernst & YOung gave the same exact award to Microsoft in its 3rd year of business. That is how amaizng and true this proudct is for paying off people’s homes and debt and commercial loans as well in record time and cancelling interest rapidly. MY dad is on it and I now from first hand experience. People should not talk badly about a product or spread lies when they have NO IDEA of what they are talking about obviously from the comments I see on this blog. Go do a search of Ernst & Young and UFF or money merge account and look at the criteria they look at in order to give this prestigeous award. God help Dave Ramsey for trying to keep this TRUTH away from people and keeping them in DEBT and bondage and getting out of debt the SLOW way and not this better way for most.
The E&Y award was for marketing the product, and not an endorsement of the method itself. God help Dave Ramsey? For what? For calling a spade a spade? Telling it like it is?
YOu are very wrong sir. Go check out the criteria that Ernst & Young has in order to award this award to any company…….not marketing at all. Very indepth research into their books and business model, if its a “Proven” solution or not, if the company is a scam or a fly by night company or a very stable company, and it the product and company are who they say they are and they can do what they say they can do. They also went into every client account and calculated how much of principle was paid in all of the hundreds of thousands of clients uff has now and had to determine exactly how much was debt was cancelled and it was determinend that uff and the money merge account has helped pay off over $153 million in consumer debt and mortgages. YOu really need to do your research better before you speak against a product that is changing people’s lives, and how do I know this? I know from all my family on it , my friends on it, and I have seen it work myself and nothing it like it in the world. I said that about Dave Ramsey becuase when you know there is a better way to get people out of the bondage of DEBT and interest they are paying to the banks they don’t have to pay……….and you know the TRUTH and don’t share it and try to hide it by knocking the solution so you can keep selling your books and cd’s and tapes and charging thousands to churches for his Financial Peace University then I think that is not a good steward or someone that wants America out of debt. He is their compettiion and that is why he is not supporting it. People that are on the product and seeing it for themselves know the truth and I am sorry he does not and you do not but please stop being so ignorant and go do some “Real” research on it. I am not going to answer anymore of these comments that are not making sense and unfounded and not the truth and in ignorance really. I know the truth and so do so many others and God knows this company’s heart and the truth.
I am very sorry for you, and if it will bring you peace, I will pray for you.
My word regarding E&Y are true, and have been documented all around the internet. A call to E&Y’s public relations produces a very frustrated employee who is tired of explaining the difference between the sponsorship and an E&Y audit.
The product is flawed, and overpriced. Any analysis of the numbers over a month’s time will show the software missing the simplest calculations to maximize one’s return using the HELOC shuffle. I’d ask, although I understand you are gone, what people, aside from paid speakers and other agents, or magazines, other than mortgage trade journals which are advertising products not real magazines, actually endorse this product? Kiplingers was kind enough to write a quarter page article, stating ’stay away’. Are they not a well known, trusted source?
I was not going to answer your comments anymore or try to defend anything to anyone, but I guess I will say one more thing and leave it at that. Go look up Jesus Christ on the internet and see what “Experts” say about him. So many people and so called experts will say he is not the Son of God and will really say some really ugly untruths about him, but we all know the Truth. So I don’t care what Kiplingers says, just like I would not base me continuing or deciding to be a Christian on if people on the internet (Same as reading junk on a bathroom wall of people’s opinions) and magazines and experts said there is no God or Jesus Christ was only a teacher and not the Savior. I know the Truth because I have seen it for myself work and paying off tons of interest and principle in years earlier. And I know for a fact that New York Times best selling Christian author, Mark Victor Hansen, of “Chicken Soup for the Soul book series would not represnt UFF and the money merge accunt and do magazine stories on it and be their national spokesperson and claim he is on it himself as a client cancelling over $600k of interest on his home……..if it was not the actual truth and he saw it for himself. He has sold more books than anyone in the world excpet for the Bible and he would NOT risk his reputation on this solution and say it is the most important company in America and changing people’s lives if it were not true and “Proven” by many experts. Also, just to show you everyone that is bashing it does not know what they are talking about or educated on it……..there is NO HELOC needed or credit line or anything, I have friends who are on it with just checking and savings. The real scam I believe in America is the 30 yr fixed mortgage with all front loaded interest for the 1st 10 yrs or more and people like you and your sources are probably in one and going to be in the bondage of debt and servant to the lender until they die. My dad invested the $3500 and he is on track to save over $260k of interest and that you can’t dispute and that is a fact. I feel this is a tradgedy that so many are still in the dark and doing bi-weekly mortgage payments that only take 1 payment off your mortgage per year and will only take you down to a 25 to 26 yr payoff……and the banks don’t want you to know there is a better way! I am really done with this now. God bless you and I will really pray for you to someday know the Truth.
When I was young, the Big Guy made it clear to me there are 2 things to pray for:
1) to thank Him for His blessings
2) to ask for good. not selfish good, but good for others.
There are two ways to use Him name:
1) to praise Him alone or in a group
2) to speak of Him in conversation.
The use of His name for matters as this is blasphemy. Look it up, pray for guidance. Pray for peace, not for mortgage advice. You need not reply to me, I understand.
When you were young – you only were only drinking the spiritual milk given to you by God.
Now that you are an adult – you should be feasting on spiritual meat. The milk you recieved when you were young was only what you could handle at that time. If you are a true follower of Christ.
Then I ask you. What does the Bible say about judging others? Or, being involved in slander and gossip?
I see you are all over the internet slandering the United First Financial company and product. We know by spiritul meat that God is the creator of everything and that he uses his children for his pourpose and glory. Now, If God loved us so much to give his very best up for us “Jesus” so that he could be in union with his creation “us” then obviously God cares about every area of our lives – that is why he instructed us to keep our mouths shut so that we would “seem wise”. I see that your mouth is wide open all over the internet on Youtube and so many other places as if you are trying to prove something about your worth. You are worth so much, that Christ died for you – In his power he can save you. If he can save you – then He does not need you to share your forced opinon on others that is not founded upon fact. If you are in fact looking for a way to really help others out of debt – then what have you done for others to help them in this cause? Did God anoint you to build a mission based comapany like UFF? No, he did not. He choose someone else.. Does that bother you? If it does then all you need to do is submit your plans for creating a better solution that will help America get out of the bondage of debt. Be part of the Solution and I encourage you and support you in doing that.
God is concerned with every matter of our lives. Especial if you are a Christian – then you would identify me as your sister in Christ – Because he lives in me and if you are a Christian also then He lives in you.
Knowing that as fact, you should know what blasphemy is.
From a loving Sister in Christ!
More evil has been done in The Big Guy’s name than good. That should tell you something.
What He did for me was to anoint me with a math SAT score of 800. That was enough to remove the scales from my eyes and see a scam for what it is. With that gift, I have no choice but to speak. Loving my neighbor as myself puts that burden on me. The founders of UFF are blasphemers just as Madoff was. Those whom I saved from the Madoff scam are grateful, those who invested with him are in such bad shape I pray for them, and take no joy in my being right.
I am part of the solution. I make no money from this (aside from the $16.49 the Amazon link generated last year) and offer a do it yourself sheet which generates questions that I answer for free. In my postings I do my best to avoid ad hominem attacks, although admittedly, I sometimes fail at that, being human and all.
I cannot prove the Big Guy’s existence, nor the Divinity of His Son, but I believe He speaks to us in a way that we each understand and only makes sense to those who listen. If you read my writings, yes, there’s a lot, you’ll mostly find tutorials on mortgages and how mortgage math works. I then discuss the failings of the MMA program. UFF and MMA agents sites offer hyperbole and bad math. I offer the truth, and ability to perform the simple arithmetic needed to expose this scam. By the way, Rush Limbaugh also blasphemes with his tag line “talent on loan from God” yet he speaks with hate in his heart. This is why I take offense when people use His name to promote anything but peace, directly.
I AM SO GLAD THAT YOU TOLD THE TRUTH IN YOUR LAST POST ABOUT WHAT YOU DO.
SO YOU DO HAVE SOMTHING TO LOSE OR GAIN IF THE MONEY MERGE ACCOUNT WORKS – I NOW UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR YOUR OPINION TO MATTER TO OTHERS. IT’S FOR YOUR GAIN -EITHER “MONITARY GAIN or BUILDING YOUR REPUTATION ONLINE”.
YOU USED THE WORD I MORE THAN 10 TIME’S IN ONE COMMUNICATION THAT IS A SURE SIGN THAT YOU ARE SELF FOCUSED – SOMONE WHO HAS AN SAT SCORE THAT HIGH CAN READ, LEARN, MEMORIZE AND REGERGATATE ON PAPER VERY WELL. WISDOM DOES NOT COME FROM EDUCATON – AS WISDOM IS A GIFT FROM OUR CREATOR “GOD”. WISDOM,VISON, AND APPLIED KNOWLEDGE “ACTION” AND FAITH BUILT THIS COUNTRY AND BUILT UNITED FIRST FINANCIAL. UNITED FIRST FINANCIAL HAD NOTHING TO GAIN AND EVERYTHING TO LOSE BECUASE THEY ACTED ON THE BEHALF OF OTHERS BEST INTEREST. A TRUE CALLING IS WHEN YOUR SKILL AND WISDOM IS APPLIED TO BRINGING FORTH A SOLUTION THAT AIDS IN SOLVING A SOCIETYS OR ANOTHER PERSONS PROBLEM. UNITED FIRST FINANCIAL OWNERS HAVE DONE JUST THAT.
A TESTIMENT TO THIS BEING FACT IS THAT WITH OVER HUNDEREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CLIENTS USING THIS SYSTEM – YOU AND I KNOW THE COMPANY WOULD BE SHUT DOWN AND HAVE THOUSANDS OF COMPLAINTS FROM EVERY STATE IN THE NATION AND IN CANADA. SO FAR THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO DEBUNK THE MONEY MERGE ACCOUNT ARE PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT HAVE AN AGENDA AND SOMETHING TO GAIN.
I WILL CHECK BACK WITH YOU IN THE NEXT 24 MONTHS AND WE WILL SEE IF YOU ARE STIL THE EXPERT YOU CLAIM TO BE TODAY. THE TRUTH IS ALREADY THERE IN FRONT OF YOU. I JUST WONDER IF YOUR GOING TO HAVE A CONVERSION LIKE APOSTLE PAUL OR IF YOUR GOING TO CONTINUE TO PERSECUTE SOMETHING THAT IS A BLESSING TO MANY FAMILIES.
THANK YOU FOR SHARING “YOUR” VIEW WITH THE WORLD.
There will be praying that you see the true nature of what’s so clear to me. Typing in caps, well, that’s just odd. This is said by many.
You really don’t understand the numbers at all, do you?
Ahhh, ’tis truly sad that no one wants to hear the message. People are so used to being told to spend that they can’t believe that they can save without outside help. So my mantra holds – MMA users are financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate and intellectually lazy.
Just because an MMA user’s name may be Mark Victor Hansen does not mean he has a clue on how MMA works nor how to spend money responsibly. The gossip and news columns are filled with stories of in-the-news people who make lots of money and either have nothing to show for it, like Brittany Spears and Lindsey Lohan, or are deeply in debt, like Ed McMahon and Michael Jackson.
I guess the undisciplined are so enamored with the MMA’s what-if capability that it truly motivates them to pay off their HELOC debt so MMA can tell them to send more money to pay off their mortgage. WHAT WE PREACH HERE IS THAT YOU DON’T NEED TO SPEND $3500 TO HAVE SOME PROGRAM TELL YOU TO PAY OFF YOUR MORTGAGE DEBT. JUST TAKE THE CASH YOU HAVE LEFT IN YOUR CHECKING ACCOUNT EVERY MONTH AND APPLY IT TO YOUR MORTGAGE.
’nuff said.
While researching the MMA thing I’d heard about from somewhere I’ve run across many threads and they have been immensely entertaining. It’s not likely that either side will convince the other to change.
Some things I’ve noted.
Math is math. And though some MMA agents appear to almost agree that people could do it on their own, but they are convinced that some people aren’t smart enough or disciplined enough to do it themselves. How much discipline or smarts to you have to have to say that you have an extra $150/mo to apply to your mortgage and simple add it to your payment or schedule it?
MMA agents certainly avoid talking about real numbers in their arguments and instead prefer to reach out to peoples emotions. This was my first red flag.
They are also pushing being debt free as the holy grail that everyone must achieve. This is another emotional plea. In fact, is that what you should strive for rather than the ABILITY to pay off all your debt any time you want? In fact, using every spare disposable dime to put towards your mortgage for many many years (for most people) means that they are putting themselves at enormous risk should they suffer any financial difficulty like the loss of their job. Say you’ve paid every dime for five years and then lose your job. You may likely lose your house that you’ve paid down so much now that you can’t pay for it and have no savings or investments. So another smart strategy is to invest that extra money where it can make more than the interest charged on the loan. That’s a little tougher in todays economy but not in normal times since rates are low and you write off some of the interest at tax time. Google “tale of two brothers mortgage” for some engaging thoughts on paying off your mortgage early or not.
Those of you trying to enlighten those that may get sucked in to these schemes, please keep fighting the good fight. It’s all the right Karma.
I see that you have never used the mma either or know anything about it except for what you hear on the internt or blogs and like you said, many threads. If you did know anything about it you would not say any of what you said above. I really don’t want to explain this anymore to people who do their due dilligence by reading others opinions who also, most of them have never been on it or used it for themselves to see the proof.
1. It is not just math and you can try and do something yourself to excellerate your mortgage and debt but no human being on earth can match what this does for you. Do you think the company would have paid GE and theirAeronautical engineers millions of dollars to develop this if you can do it on your own? Do you think one of the largest banks in the nation would have invested their money as well into this and actually offer to buy it from the company last year and offer it to their clients if people could do it on their own? Do you think one of the top 3 accounting firms in the nation would have bought the licensing rights for the MMA from the company and relicensed it in 6 different countries in 6 different languages and paid a ton of money for that if they or banks or accounting firms or anyone could do it on their own, the exact results of what this does? NO, they would not. THis is proven, this is real, and if it were not you would find hundreds of thousands of complaints from “REAL CLIENTS” that are actually on it and speaking about it from “EXPERIENCE” not hear say and they would be saying its a scam and they would be all over the BBB in every state and in Canada and you would here from all their clients wanting thier money back if it were not working for them and they could do it themselves. Another thing that shows me you know nothing about it is that you don’t put every dime into your mortgage and it does not use just your discretionary income and that is it. There are many different facits to this and it is a total full scale solution to being debt free and mortgage free in most of the time 7 to 10 yrs, some are doing it in 5yrs. It all depends on their personal situation. One more thing that you really need to think about when you knock other people’s products and you dont’ know what you are talking about……don’t ruin it for others who are really striving to get out of the bondage of DEBT and interest bleeding them every month because there are people out there that are really smart with their finances and see that paying hundreds of thousands of dollars of interest to the bank or credit card companies or car companies that you really don’t have to pay is NOT the best way to run their lives. Who in their right mind would do that if they knew there was a better way? Ufirst has a better way!! Also, if you are paying your home down rapidly and cutting out all that interest on your debt and home then you are so far ahead of the game when or if you get sick or lose your job and you have paid down so much of your principle and balances off on your cards and credit lines that you could live off some of those if you needed to for a while instead of always being maxed out on your debt and you could also refinance your home and takes some cash out if you really needed to for an emergeny because now you are gaining more equity every month and every year while your home is going down and down in Value like it is now and will continue to go in this crisis and bad housing foreclosure market so then you would not be stuck with a house upside down or not much equity and you would be able to even refinance your home in today’s banking credit crunch and nightmare lending mess!! So they are not offering this to people with emotions at all, this is real life and this is real financial freedom and this is smart money management to know where you are at ALL times in your finances and interst you are paying and cancelling and this is total financial wellness for our lives and is something America never had before and you watch, it will change the landscape of America in time and over the years and will become a household name. I know this because my family and friends and all our clients are on this and we own a very successful mortgage company and we know amortization and how it works and we know a lot about finances and would not even touch this for our clients or offer it if it were not the “Truth”. One more thing, about karma, there is no such thing. God is our source and he is our blessing and he blesses us and I believe this is a blessing from God. God bless you and please go find out for yourself about the MMA and get on it so you can see it work for you and know the Truth. It is about a 1200% return for most of our clients on their investment so well worth it.
@TheRealTruth
“Do you think the company would have paid GE and their Aeronautical engineers millions of dollars to develop this if you can do it on your own?”
CAN YOU VERIFY ANYTHING UFF TOLD YOU?? GE had nothing to do with this and millions weren’t spent on algorithms.
What a maroon you are!
If you knew anything about mortgages, you would know that all MMA does is tell people to take their own money and send it to the bank. If you truly knew anything about amortization, you would know that MMA costs more money to use than doing it on your own. YOU DON’T NEED TO SPEND $3500 ON SOFTWARE TO TELL YOU TO PAY DOWN YOUR MORTGAGE AND YOUR CREDIT CARD BILLS!
What an amazing wall of text. Yet, not a single verified fact in the entire wall. In fact, most of it is lies.
Everything is true and everything this solution does and has done and all the facts and all the client testimonials who are actually on the system using it everyday and everything anyone said on the internet againsst the product and company and people who work for the company in bringng back the hope that America needs …….DEBT Freedom…..all of that will be PROVEN and debunked in a national top financial magazine issue coming out in May/ June so watch for it! I am not dealing with ignorance and people that dont understand anything about this any further. The proof is out there, go look for it.
Impressive “Truth In Lending”, I haven’t seen anyone tell the same blatant UFF lies in a while. Thanks for going old school!
GE did not pay anything for this software development. Supposedly the developers used to work for GE. You know, those “mathematical engineers.” Funny that no university here offers a mathematical engineering program. Mechanical, electrical, civil, etc…yes. Mathematical…no.
Yet another agent saying human beings can’t outperform the software….even though it’s been proven hundreds of times on the internet.
As for a major financial magazine supporting it….well Kiplingers already panned it. MSNBC already panned it. Dave Ramsey has pantsed agents on live radio. CNBC doesn’t like it. The only people claiming the big savings over standard prepayers…..are the people selling it. Imagine that.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. People have told these lies for a while since they’ve been proven false on so many different websites.
calvin
Wow, I now feel like I’ve moved up the smartness scale. You say you know a lot about amortization and finances and then say: [you could also refinance your home and takes some cash out if you really needed to for an emergency because now you are gaining more equity every month].
So I guess you know brokers that are willing to do a refi when you have no income? Maybe stated income with super low LTV? Maybe, pretty unlikely.
[If you did know anything about it you would not say any of what you said above.] Weak argument as one doesn’t need to jump off a cliff to know you shouldn’t do that.
The math is dead simple and can be done on a 50 cent RPN calculator. No complicated software can do it any better. I’ve seen many of the debunkers here challenge MMA agents to run ANY scenario that comes out better than simple math. It’s either completely avoided or they give up and switch to other arguments like people need a system or they can’t stick to it.
No response to the tale of two brothers so I’m sure your not interested on other strategies, just ones that pad your pocket book.
So anyone reading these threads and wondering if it’s legit, do you own research, listen to both sides and enjoy the entertainment aspect. One side can substantiate everything they claim and are willing to do so at any time and the other side cannot and will avoid it. You decide which is which. Is the truth in fuzzy logic?
Joel -
Funny thing, this rule set,
A) Make all minimum payment due.
B) Take all extra month end cash and pay it to the highest rate debt.
is all one needs. The HELOC adds risk well beyond any savings. A spreadsheet was created and posted for the (free) downloading, and stated was, “it has no value”, because prepayments take *no* math.
The does, however, offer tracking, you pay an extra $xxx to the mortgage and the sheet will tell you how much interest you saved as well as how much time is left on the mortgage. Without the sheet, you’ll just be surprised. It’s like a GPS, you know, one that annoyingly says “4 miles to go”, “3 miles to go” etc. Some tracking is ok, it would seem. Once a month should be enough. There are those, on the other hand who believe this to be a Faith Based Mortgage Accelerator.
Agreed Joe. One other point I saw somewhere is that not all mortgages recalculate or re-amortize each time you make an extra principal payment which reduces the benefit of prepayment. I don’t know what percentage of loans are like that but it’s something to pay attention to.
You have no idea how this works and as for the Heloc interest it is so very minimum as it is calculated very different. You should do your homework and really research something before you publish your opinion.
This is the greatest product I have seen in years. Have you checked out all of their valid endorsements?????
Please don’t be quick to be critical of something you know nothing about!!!
@eagle
Too bad you are clueless regarding math. If you had the patience to read through the 500 or so posts, you would realize that, yes, we know very well how the math works and how HELOC interest is calculated compared to a mortgage, and that we’ve done our homework.
What do you consider a valid endorsement? E&Y, perhaps? These people don’t vet the product, just the company, based on recommendations, so it’s very easy to game the system. Mark Victor Hansen or Glenn Beck? These people are paid to shill for the company, they are clueless as to how the math works. What about all those trade magazines? You mean the ones with a 30,000 circulation designed to advertise products? How about Kiplinger that panned MMA? Does that count?
Financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate and intellectually lazy – a typical MMA user.
eagle,
Ernst & Young sponsors the regional & national awards, and does no vetting of either the company or products. It’s like the bowl games in college football. Did Tostito’s choose the teams to play in the Tostito’s Fiesta Bowl? No, they just sponsor the game. The teams are chosen by a committee, just like the E&Y award. The E&Y award committee includes past award winners, among other media & community judges.
If by “valid endorsements” you mean “Success From Home” magazine, and others, well click my name to read a detailed post debunking the “independant 3rd party validation” myth that so many agents claim. The short of it: the parent company to “Success From Home”, VideoPlus L.P. uses it to sell magazines to clients of MLM/direct selling companies and to, in their words (from a VP whitepaper), “subtly reassur[e] readers this magazine is offering a solid third party look at the featured direct selling company.” And my favorite, “As you consider INVESTING in a third party magazine…”
UFF wants you to buy it (remember how it was first offered in your back office only in 10, 24, and 48 packs?) They want to recoup their “investment”. They want you to believe this was some national, independent magazine that was blown away with the product. It’s not. It was paid/arranged for.
As for Broker Banker magazine, well executive publisher Brian Topor has been an UFF agent since early 2007, so of course he is going to “endorse” the MMA.
True Wealth Magazine “is published by Cutting Edge Medio, Inc., founded in 1991 in attempts to become the leading provider of marketing, advertising, and lead generation solutions for the home business industry.” Looking at their website, you see the statement, “UFirst agents, click here for your special edition.”
Agents buying copies of promotional magazines must be good business. But so is overpriced, inefficient software.
Please read my reams of analysis before you are so quick to judge the “nay-sayers.”
HELOC is calculated on an average daily balance basis, so while the initial idea of borrowing from the HELOC even at 8% to pay a 6% mortgage *can* work (so long as the average is kept low enough that the HELOC interest spent is kept below the Mortage interest saved) the MMA implementation is, well, flawed. In UFirst’s own video, which I took a snapshot of, and did some math, it’s clear the HELOC interest exceeds the Mortgage interest saved. I am not a brain surgeon, nor a rocket scientist. I am also not the guy who wrote this piece of trash you are trying to peddle. There’s a guy named Greg who sells a $30 piece of software that beats MMA starting by not making that mistake on day one. He’s no rocket man, either, just a programmer who understands math, interest, and time value of money.
Have you checked out Madoffs endorsements? Have you checked out the list of known people who have gone public that MMA is not worth it? It seems I know more than you do about it, and happy to discuss further. But I first suggest, respectfully, that you read my own blog post of Feb 19, and tell me that it’s no big deal to spend $41.57 in interest to save $35.75 on your mortgage. And no, you don’t get to say that somehow that HELOC gets paid off, but the mortgage is immediately shortened. You only get to look at month to month snapshots, that’s how interest is calculated. Again, the HELOC shuffle can work, but not the way MMA tries to do it. Numbers don’t lie, and it seems liars are innumerate. (that last line sounded more clever in my head than on my screen, but I’ll let it go for now)
I suggest, respectfully, that you read my own blog post of Feb 19, and tell me that it’s no big deal to spend $41.57 in interest to save $35.75 on your mortgage. And no, you don’t get to say that somehow that HELOC gets paid off, but the mortgage is immediately shortened. You only get to look at month to month snapshots, that’s how interest is calculated. Again, the HELOC shuffle can work, but not the way MMA tries to do it.