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United First Financial Money Merge Accounts: Scam or Legit?
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A reader recently sent an email asking about a program United First Financial runs called a Money Merge Account and whether it was legitimate. United First Financial promises that the program, which costs $3500, would have you pay off the mortgage in one-third to one-half the time it normally would take. Knowing nothing about money merge accounts and knowing a little bit more about simple math, I smelled a fat $3500 scam brewing. The only scenario in which I could see $3500 cutting your mortgage in half is if you had a $7000 mortgage. But, setting my mental scam alerts aside, I did some more research about the plan.
Apparently it’s a fancy name for an accelerated mortgage repayment scheme. The first step in the money merge account is to take out a second mortgage on your home, a home equity line of credit. Then, what you do pay your entire paycheck towards the first mortgage and withdraw money from the HELOC to cover your expenses. You save a little money because the interest on a HELOC is calculated based on average daily balance rather than the final monthly balance. This lets you pay off more of the mortgage at the beginning of the month and then be charged less interest on the HELOC. (this assumes the same interest rate, which is a big flaw)
However, the plan also has a lot of other assumptions and flaws.
- It assumes that your HELOC interest rate will be the same as your first mortgage interest rate – very unlikely. The bigger the HELOC rate, the less you save on that difference.
- It assumes a single monthly paycheck so it’s a plan that loses some of its power if you are paid irregularly or every two weeks.
- One big flaw is that there is never discussion of HELOC fees. I’ve never opened a HELOC but I imagine it’s not free.
- This plan requires that you don’t save at all for anything else. Since your entire paycheck goes towards the mortgage and you withdraw expenses, it penalizes you drawing on the HELOC for non-essentials. Why pay $100 towards a 6-7% mortgage and then borrow $100 from a 10% HELOC?
- Finally, as if all those weren’t enough, you have to pay $3,500 for a program to help you do this!?
In researching this article I researched a lot of sites and they were nearly unanimous in their opinion that these types of programs are not worth the money (not surprisingly). They’re not scams in the sense that you pay your $3500 and they disappear into the night but it’s something you can do yourself.
This begs the question, should you use it to force discipline? I could justify paying $100 to enforce discipline because it can save you quite a bit in the long run, if you can overcome the failings, but $3500 is ridiculous. If you have $3500 and you want to pay off your mortgage sooner, send a $3500 check to your mortgage company. (if you want a legitimate and easy way to pay off a mortgage faster, consider making mortgage payments every two weeks)
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@eagle,
Ernst & Young sponsors the regional & national awards, and does no vetting of either the company or products. It’s like the bowl games in college football. Did Tostito’s choose the teams to play in the Tostito’s Fiesta Bowl? No, they just sponsor the game. The teams are chosen by a committee, just like the E&Y award. The E&Y award committee includes past award winners, among other media & community judges.
If by “valid endorsements” you mean “Success From Home” magazine, and others, well click my name to read a detailed post debunking the “independant 3rd party validation” myth that so many agents claim. The short of it: the parent company to “Success From Home”, VideoPlus L.P. uses it to sell magazines to clients of MLM/direct selling companies and to, in their words (from a VP whitepaper), “subtly reassur[e] readers this magazine is offering a solid third party look at the featured direct selling company.” And my favorite, “As you consider INVESTING in a third party magazine…”
UFF wants you to buy it (remember how it was first offered in your back office only in 10, 24, and 48 packs?) They want to recoup their “investment”. They want you to believe this was some national, independent magazine that was blown away with the product. It’s not. It was paid/arranged for.
As for Broker Banker magazine, well executive publisher Brian Topor has been an UFF agent since early 2007, so of course he is going to “endorse” the MMA.
True Wealth Magazine “is published by Cutting Edge Medio, Inc., founded in 1991 in attempts to become the leading provider of marketing, advertising, and lead generation solutions for the home business industry.” Looking at their website, you see the statement, “UFirst agents, click here for your special edition.”
Agents buying copies of promotional magazines must be good business. But so is overpriced, inefficient software.
I bought the program! It WORKS!
12 years left on my 15yr mortgage, 3 car loans, many credit cards, school loans and it is working for me.
I only have 4 1/2 yrs to be totally debt free!
Trust me…If it did not work, I would be the first to say so.
You doom and gloomers go ahead and put down what you have not tried first hand.
Try it for yourself. It has a money back gaurantee!
Please read my reams of analysis before you are so quick to judge the “nay-sayers.”
HELOC is calculated on an average daily balance basis, so while the initial idea of borrowing from the HELOC even at 8% to pay a 6% mortgage *can* work (so long as the average is kept low enough that the HELOC interest spent is kept below the Mortage interest saved) the MMA implementation is, well, flawed. In UFirst’s own video, which I took a snapshot of, and did some math, it’s clear the HELOC interest exceeds the Mortgage interest saved. I am not a brain surgeon, nor a rocket scientist. I am also not the guy who wrote this piece of trash you are trying to peddle. There’s a guy named Greg who sells a $30 piece of software that beats MMA starting by not making that mistake on day one. He’s no rocket man, either, just a programmer who understands math, interest, and time value of money.
Have you checked out Madoffs endorsements? Have you checked out the list of known people who have gone public that MMA is not worth it? It seems I know more than you do about it, and happy to discuss further. But I first suggest, respectfully, that you read my own blog post of Feb 19, and tell me that it’s no big deal to spend $41.57 in interest to save $35.75 on your mortgage. And no, you don’t get to say that somehow that HELOC gets paid off, but the mortgage is immediately shortened. You only get to look at month to month snapshots, that’s how interest is calculated. Again, the HELOC shuffle can work, but not the way MMA tries to do it. Numbers don’t lie, and it seems liars are innumerate. (that last line sounded more clever in my head than on my screen, but I’ll let it go for now)
Don’t know if some key word is holding up my posts. If this is a duplicate, my appology.
Has anyone purchased this product, used it, and been disappointed with the results? If so, I would like to speak to you about your experience, to see if I can help you. Please contact me directly.
I know this was posted months ago, but I fit this description. My financial planner talked me into purchasing it and I have quickly regretted it. Long story. I tried to get my money back but no luck so far. (still trying)It’s been a horrible experience. People can spout out all the statistics they want, but it didn’t work for me. If anyone wants to help, just help me get my money back
Sandy,
I saw your post at Tracy Coenen’s Fraid Files Blog, and I really hope you can get your money back. I’ve challenged highly-visible UFirst agent Sue Copening to help you.
Wow, thank you. I tried emailing the company and got no response, so I filed a report with the BBB. I didn’t want to do that, but it was my last resort, especially after realizing that my agent forged his wife’s signature on the paperwork. I know a lot of people have different opinions on the program, but for me, I watched my bank account get dangerously low. The program would have had me overdrawing on my checking account and bouncing all my bills. I really do appreciate your help!
apparently you dont know what you are talking about when it comes to math and you did not do a very good job or research on the money merge program , i already met people who have paid their house off and only 2% of people pay more money towards the payment and if you did the math you would find with the money merge program you are paying 2.5 percent for your loan and saving thousands on interest ,you must be a banker and dont want people to know the truth and the money merge program has been around europe for 16 years and tell me whos dollar is stonger.
Mark – an amazing run-on sentence. Congratulations for packing so much into that.
A) I know numbers, I know the math it takes to calculate the time value of money. If it’s bragging to say I passed 4th grade math class, then braggart I may be.
B) The 2% who pay more is meaningless, a statistic that has nothing do do with whether MMA has value.
C) From your 2.5% interest rate statement, it’s clear that you don’t understand much yourself. A 30 year fixed rate 6% mortgage has a 6% rate, period. Pay it over 30 years, 6%. Pay it off in 10, guess what? The rate was 6%. Win lottery in one year and pay it in full, the rate was, let me see, oh right, 6%. Now of course, the guy who pays it in 10 years will have paid far less interest than the 30 year payoff. That was never disputed. But to say that one is paying 2.5% for that loan can only be called one word – innumerate. Look it up.
D) I don’t know to whom your remark was addressed, but I am not a banker. I do have a spreadsheet one can download and beat MMA every time. The sheet is free, as I have nothing to sell, only to pass on my knowledge. If people wish to pay their mortgage off early, that’s fine by me.
E) What in the world does the value of the Euro have to do with anything here? This type of mortgage plan originated in Australia, which last I checked, was not in Europe.
“…only 2% of people pay more money towards the payment…”
Citation needed. A few periods to start new sentences wouldn’t hurt, either.
“…and if you did the math you would find with the money merge program you are paying 2.5 percent for your loan and saving thousands on interest…”
No, you’re not. Care to prove me wrong with math instead of repeating the lies your Ufirst trainer taught you?
“…you must be a banker and dont want people to know the truth and the money merge program has been around europe for 16 years and tell me whos dollar is stonger.”
It’s called a “Euro”, and which side of the pond is better at prepaying mortgages has practically nothing to do with currency valuation.
Congratulations, Mark. You’re just the latest in a long line of financially (and otherwise) illiterate United First Financial agents to make a fool of himself online.
I just want to make one more comment to the naysayers here. I really think it is so dishoneset of you or ignorant to keep proclaiming your “Opinon” on the MMA when not 1 of you have been on the program or even know what the heck you are talking about. I see by all your comments that you don’t know what you are talking about and dont know the system at all or what it can do or the benefits or how it works. You don’t need a heloc or credit line, just fyi so please stop on that issue. You dont understand the math or factorial math or you would not have said some of how you think the math works because obviously by your comments again…..you know nothing about it. Not one of you are built with math code or what the GE aeronautical engineers developed this software system with so you can’t possibly figure all the math out and especially when life changes everyday and every month and income changes and expenses change.Lastly a report just came out and United First Financial and the money merge account clients have cancelled over $333 million in principle as of today’s date and that is only in the last 2 yrs and that does not include all the consumer debt principle cancelled, that is just MORTGAGES. So tell all the clients on this program across the nation and in Canada that it does not work and its a scam because they are on it and they see it for themselves working everyday including my parents! Please go do your research by getting on it and then start talking……you will see that it is the truth in lending and everyone should know about this ” Better Way”. If they did , our country would not be in such bad shape with DEBT and interest against them keeping them in a never ending cycle of DEBT and paying interest to the banks and credit card companies and one more thing, if anyone could do this ………then why havnt they. If everyone had then we would all not be in this position of financial crisis across the nation with our homes upside down and paying way too much interest and so in debt beyond belief! Seriously, you are wrong and just stop talking without facts.
@ Real Truth. I under stand there are nearly 100,000 systems in use. When you divide $333M by 100,000, you get 3,330. This is the principal paid down over two years? I pay off more than that in 2 months. You might want o check your numbers before your next rapid post.
BTW, even in agent speak, you pay off principal, but cancel interest.
GE aeronautical engineer? To do fourth grade math? Do you have any idea how that sounds to a sane person?
So from what I understand, United First Financial offers a service and charges money for it. The value of the service that is offered far exceeds the purchase price. Looks like the company has a money back guaruntee if their product does not live up to their claims, so by my way of thinking they are standing behind their product. So what’s the problem?
No, Darren, the value is negative. One who pays on their principal on their own is much further ahead. Money-back guarantee? The clients are too inumerate to understand the scam.
The problem is that it’s a scam, plain and simple. Buyer beware, I suppose, but I am a numbers guy, and see it very clearly. Is it not obvious that when there’s a product whose advocates claim was divinely inspired, yet all sellers has no clue of its working, that there’s a problem? Open your eyes. Open your mind.
This is just my personal opinion… I bought my home last year with a 30 yr mortgage, and did my own math. I calculated to pay my house off in 5 years having annual payments (most of my savings) and saving thousands in interests, without any software, HELOC, etc. I confirmed this information with the mortgage company. Not rocket science… But you know I changed my mind with this economical crisis… Not being sure of the home sales prices and employment situation, I prefer not to put extra money on my mortgage because of the risk of losing everything in a case of foreclosure. So this depends on the case, but definitely I don’t think you need to invest $3,500.00 + any hidden cost to save in interests. Actually, the mortgage company offers a mortgage accelerator program, where you have to pay $5.00 extra monthly, and what they do it is just to pay your mortgage bi-weekly instead of monthly. Doing this, you reduce 7 years of your 30 yr-mortgage.
Mary, well said. I hereby confirm you as “numerate”.
This is so funny. Jim Wang says the UFF MMA is “not worth the money” but look at his website, it teaches you how to be frugal and he asks for monetary donations! What a joke. If I were to send a one time payment of $3500 to my mortgage I would have less gain than to utilize MMA for life. I could utilize the product to payoff all my debts, not just my mortgage. The product has a lot of useful features and is much easier and faster to use than a spreadsheet and calculator. Sorry joeblowtaxpayer that you cannot show me how a spreadsheet will do all the work for me. You are like a caveman trying to convince someone living in the 21st century that it is better to write with sticks in the dirt than to use modern technology. Put your ‘paper and pencil’ away and get with the program. Really, get on the program. In your own words, “Open your eyes. Open your mind.” lol
The monetary donation is a joke, but you keep believing that UFF is worth it.
Lin, I see your point. You are right. I withdraw all my prior remarks. MMA is the financial holy grail, divinely inspired, in the same manner the 10 commandments were delivered to Moses.
I have to go, when I read your post I laughed so hard, I think I got a hernia…
I hit send too soon. Lin, I am curious why you resort to the personal attacks? I ever you you names? Caveman? Joeblow? Why do pro-MMAers go right to name calling?
More than that, why do they never respond to any numbers I discuss, only offer more hyperbole in return? Whatever, I don’t expect an answer, let alone a civil one.
I did my maths in a 21st century Excel sheet… For me to buy the software or not is similar to the following example. Your taxes: you can do it by yoursel in Turbotax or pay to an accountant. Lesson learned: I did it in Turbotax, and didn’t believe in my results (I wanted more refunds..)So I thought something was missing and decided at the end to pay to an accountant. Guess what??? He got the same result as I did. Yes, of course I got my $2,500 refund but I lost $250.00 from it…
Mary, add to your example that the target client only needs a 1040-EZ, not even itemizing, the Tax guy insisting that “you can’t do this yourself”, and then claiming that (in your example) you got a 1000% return on your ‘investment’. Then you’d be getting close. Then add that the tax guy is a 7th grade drop out, and faxes all your data to
India for processing, as he has no idea how taxes are calculated. Now you’re there.
I’ve heard and seen others talk of this product. We chose NOT to use MMA to pay off our mortgage. In encounters with agents & users, my attention was drawn to the fact that this program doesn’t do what some people’s first perceptions allow them to believe it will do. Some, from my daily surroundings, seem to be just as focused on getting into the newest software program, rather than facing the supposed purpose of harnessing finances. Almost a peer pressure scenario, but among adults. Imaginations seem to run admist reality, while glimmers of hope (projectional payoff sheets)are shown on a paper. This info is prompting individuals, it seems, sometimes to go further into debt than to realistically look at their debt to income ratio. “Finances, most of the time, never work out like we put them down onto paper”. Life with its costs,is going to happen and yesterday’s projections are hindered. Some will save their money and use it toward debt, others will continue to spend creating more debt. Not a calculator or software program walked through the kitchen and collected the bills, nor did either of the devices sit to write the payment out and stamp it. My point is that the debtor will have to invest time and money in order to payoff. Whether using MMA or NOT. Is the software necessary to accomplish the goal of early payoff? NO. The bottom line is that disicpline and the assertion of money are what pays off a mortgage or any other debt. 15 years have been cut to 8 1/2 mortgage paid in full- without MMA – Rather than drawing off credit cards and an equity line, the princpal payment was doubled every month. Excessive amounts of equity wasn’t tied up for other items either, leaving a present 0 balance owed. Be wise…consider all costs
HI all, I have been watching all the comments and all the ignorance abound everyday wiht all these comments from the people that really don’t know what they are talking about at all. IF they did, some of the remarks and distinctions people have made about the mma or how it does not work would not have said these statements. First, most people don’t have the money to double up on their payments every month to pay off their home early or debt for that matter. If you know anything at all about mortgage amortization and how you can affect it, you would know that sending some extra payments per month or an extra $200 or $300 dollars per month to the mortgage like some people have said to do will NOT affect the amortization schedule enough for your mortgage time to be but in 1/2 or to 7 or 8 yrs from having 30 or 26 yrs left on your mortgage. With the systematic payments the math code calculates and tells you to do and the exact time it tells you to do it, you can affect the amortization schedule so much more and cause the bank to have to put much more of your normal payment to “Principle rather than interest every month”. Just for example, if you put an extra $5,000 off the line of credit, it that is what you choose to use as a vehicle, and you put that on the mortgage and pay it down , you are taking almost 2 yrs off your mortgage at one time and shaving off about $28k of interest. Now you say but you are doing the credit line shuffle, no you are not. When you put your income down into the line and use it as a checkiing rather than letting it sit in your checking earning NO interest then…….you are driving down the balance of that line you borrowed the $5k from. The personal unsecured line of credit or heloc if you use that, is a simple interest account so the bank calculates your monthly payment by looking at every single day of the balance so if you keep your paycheck in the line for days, could be 10 days or 15 then your balance is lower than $5k and bank is not calculating a payment on what you borrowed. So that is why it does not matter if you have a 19% rate on it or a 4% rate on it. YOu are not paying that rate! Now if you do the math you are only making a payment of like $28 or 30 on that $5k you borrowed and you are cancelling $28k of interest minus your $5k you borrowed so you really saved with that 1 transfer about $23k of interest and shaved off almost 2 yrs of your mortgage you wont pay the bank. Now you do that 3 to 4 times per year every year then do the math people. Clients across the country are on track to pay off their homes in 6 and 8 and 10 yrs average instead of 30 and 27 and 22 yrs and saving an average of $200k in interest depending upon your own situation and loan amounts and debt load. So you say don’t get into debt to get out of debt? That is really a smart decision normally, but if my CPA said give me $3500 now and in a year I will give you back $25k or $50k and you will pay off your home in 7 yrs or 8 yrs……..I would think that would be a very smart decision and a huge return if you calculate that for yourself. IF you just send some extra paymetns, like $200 or $300 per month then you will end your mortgage if you have a $200k mortgage , you will end it at year 21. IF you do a bi weekly payment you will end your mortgage at year 24 or 25. ALso, remember all clients on this program are not just paying off homes and rental homes but paying off all DEBT and commercial loans as well if business owners are on this. So they are debt FRee in 7 and 9 and 10 and 12 yrs and some of the clients have about $20k to $50k worth of debt included in this system. So you tell me, is it worth it? IF we all knew how to pay off our homes and debt ourselves the fastest most efficient way, then wouldnt all these Americans that are hurting and in terrible debt and upside down on their homes, wouldn’t they have paid off their debt or done this themselves? If so our country would NOT be in this horrible bondage and financial crisis. Just really try to think what you all are saying before you go trying to steal other people’s dreams of being Financially FRee. Also, if you are talking about something you have not tried or experienced yourselves and just talking about someone who told you soomething or hear say, then I would really not talk at all because you are hiding the truth for others to discover.
One more importnat thing to note on the mma. 97.8% of people who have been on this system all over the nation are still on it after a few years so don’t you think that it is working for peopel very well if that is the case? Also, if you have tens of thousands of people on a product they paid $3500 for don’t you think that their would be thousands of complaints across the country and in every state to the Attorney General and Consumer Affairs and on the news as a scam? No there is NOT because it works!! I don’t care what you say about Mortgage Planner magazine and Ernst & YOung and everyone just saying it works for the heck of it…….that is so ridiculous. Also, Mark Victor Hansen would not go on camera and TV and in magazines and write articles and stories on this product and company and be there spokesperson nationwide and talk to congressman and other NY Times Best Selling authors about this program if it were not the “TRUTH”. He does not need to sell anymore books or promote a solution like this at all. He is the author of “Chicken Soup for the Soul Book Series” that has been on top of the charts and NY Times Best Selling book list for years and he has sold more books in the world 2nd to the bible and is a very highly respected author. So he is on the program and announced recently he is going to save $600k of interest on his 4 plex and pay it off in 10 yrs. Do you think someone like that would announce that or advocate the product or even become the nationwide spokesperson for it if it were a scam and did not work and a waste of your money? Come on people, really think what you are saying and please do your due diligence the correct way and not listen to these people who are writing blogs and spreading lies like you would see written on the bathroom walls somewhere. They are not credible and they have no clue about how the product works or has worked for thousands of people now. I know some of you just don’t understand it and it is a paradyme shift because we have never been shown this before, but the banks won’t tell you how to get out of your mortgage much earlier then a bi weekly payment plan or a little extra towards your mortgage every month, why would they, they love to make MONEY and interest on YOU!!!!! That is their job, to make money and you end up paying them double and more in interest for your home if you keep doing it the way you were taught all your life. Just because something seems too good to be true and you have not been shown this before by anyone, does not mean that it could not be a possibility does it? LOok at the 401 k plan. People thought it was a scam and actually they thought it was illegal when it was first introduced because people could not believe you could do this with your employer………but look at it now …….people won’t usually take a job if they don’t offer a 401 k plan there. YOu will see this company and solution rise to the top just like Microsoft did and you will see it in the next few years become the most important financial product in the US and Canada and other countries soon because this is going to change the financial landscape of America and people need this HOPE and we need to not wait for the government to save us financailly but we need to take control and get on our own “Stimulous Package”. HOpe you all see the truth in this someday. I pray you will because a ton of people already have!
RTL wrote: “Just for example, if you put an extra $5,000 off the line of credit…..”
“Now you do that 3 to 4 times per year every year then do the math people.”
Let’s see, you are taking $15-$20K off a credit line each year, and paying back in full. That means you are running a positive cash flow of $1200-$1600 per month, which is getting directed (thru the HELOC) to your mortgage. Do you tell your clients that $20K per year is “no change to monthly budget”? I may be out of touch, but do most people have an extra $15K every year to throw at their mortgage? RTL – you really know how to make purses out of sows’ ears, don’t you?
RTL – you realize that you write about everything but the math? You throw numbers out, but they are meaningless. No concept of time value of money, and how mortgages actually work.
Go research Madoff and the list of people who promoted him and fell for his scam. You are no better.
Obviously you still dont get it. It is hard to explain it in simple terms like I am trying to do because it is not simple at all. There is so much more to what happens in the line but I can’t explain that all in an email. Really need to show people and they need to visually see this or it won’t make sense and people like you will think they know it all but you don’t. So I said my peace and tried to explain as much as I could but it is so much more detailed and no it is not what you said below. YOu really need to just pay the money and get on it and see how it works in your own life because every situation is different for every person of course. Interest rates, payments, debt load, mortgage balances, how every account you have calculates interest differntly , compound interest , simple interest, etc. IT has a money back gaurantee so you have nothing to lose do you? Have a nice day and I am done trying to explain and convince people who choose not to do their research more effectivly and more completely and just see it for themselves. Its like this, you can do a form of this yourself, a form of it, but not this and nothing matches this and the progress you can make. Remember also, life changes everyday and every month and expenses change and income changes and people lose jobs and trade jobs and get raises and you can’t possibly do a spreadsheet and have a stagnant plan and have to change it every single time something changes in your finances or life. That is why this is so powerful, it is dinamic and goes with your life and recalculats in seconds when anything changes and then you see your payoff year and date of all your debt and you always see how much interest you have left to pay to the exact penny. If you can’t see this solution for what it is then please go see it for yourself and then talk. You wont be able to talk bad about it anymore.
I must say, I do have great respect for someone (founders of UFF) who can take something no more complex than fourth grade arithmetic and make it appear to tens of thousands of people to be so complex that it cannot be explained.
Imagine how I feel when someone asks me to explain Credit Default Swaps, when basic math is beyond many/most people.
RTL, I wish you well, and I pray that you find the return key, and the enlightenment of proper paragraphs. I believe the Lord in His infinite mercy will grant you this.
For all else here, I pray the the Lord will deliver unto to you a Texas Instrument BA-35 calculator. As it’s the solar model, no irony will be lost on the fact that on the first day He declared “let there be light”, and but a blink of an eye later, His light will power your solar calculator. About $19.95 last I checked. Take your $3480.05 savings and send it to principal, donate it to a homeless shelter, buy a big TV (which to me, was divinely inspired, my wife, not so much) or any combination of the above.
Observations stated earlier are based on my opinion, facts and not hearsay. Having an analysis ran by an agent proved my financial status would be best served by continuing with what I was already doing. Doubling Monthly Payments. In comparision, the MMA analysis projected an earlier payoff than was actually accomplished by doubling. The MMA analysis didn’t forsee the new expenses that were to arise in my life. Doubling allowed the flexibility of just making normal payments for several months. Now that the mortgage is paid in full, it reflects those times of inability to double- so instead of being an exact 7.5 yrs, which is 1/2 of a 15 yr loan, I finished at 8.5 years actual payoff (w/out using MMA software & using doubling method)Simple. I am familar with amortization schedules. Early payoff (w/out MMA) resulted. The info found on this site gives different prospectives- so, thank you. I only wanted to share what happened in my particular situation and if that shouldn’t be posted here, my apologies. If telling the truth based in the reality of my own results (w/out MMA), using my home as an example, steals another’s dream, all that’s left to be said for clarity is, “My debt to income ratio, coupled with spending choices made much difference in payoff, saved me future years of debt and interest”. “That’s all”.
No, straight – you are living the dream. My encouraging others to do precisely what you did is “stealing” theirs. You must have some kind of PHd in quantum physics to pull this off, because the MMA agents will tell you that what you did simply cannot be done on your own.
All joking aside, congrats.
Joe –
Commonsense PHD took yrs to achieve… ..old fashioned discipline speaks for itself– Thanks — IM HAPPY!!
I had my real estate company send me a letter a few weeks ago saying that someone would be calling me about a new way to pay off my mortgage faster….I really wasn’t interested either way but this agent gave my personal information out to someone, who then called my house, got my kids to give them my cell(it was a young woman my kids thought it was a friend of mine) next thing you know shes setting up a webinar and I have no idea what shes talking about, this was friday and my internet was out all weekend due to local storms, I just got back online today to do some research before she bombarded me again, I appreciate all of your input, now I can just call her and tell her Im in no way interested and to lose my number. Even if I thought it sounded like a good idea I would have consulted my sister who holds an MBA in business and is a compliance officer for a large bank. Im in no way an expert on anything but I know people who are. I have been suckered into things like Amway(now Quickstar) and I can see why RTL and this woman who is trying to convince me are so passionate about their product, its called brainwashing, and they are motivated by money, if they really cared about everyone getting rid of their debt then the info, software, would be free and they would have nothing to gain. I cant tell you how much money my husband and I poured into “our own business” but in the end most of it was spent on tapes and seminars telling us how great amway was…and Im sure in the end it was well over $3,500. This is to anyone out there, IF IT SOUNDS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT PROBABLY IS!!!
I would buy the software if it would tell me where to invest my money so I can get a greater profit than my mortgage interest at a low risk…
Everyone says if it sounds too good to be true it probably is and that the mma should be free. I have also heard you get what you pay for. Sadly there ARE so many people getting scammed nowadays that they don’t even know when something good comes there way and pass it up as too good to be true. And FREE? Oh please….my home wasn’t given to me for free. I am paying the bank enough money to pay for it twice over and that my friend is how we are the suckers. We put our money into their banks and get 0 to 1 percent interest and when we want to borrow money from them they will charge us 5-29 percent interest. The mma is a product that a company is offering to people as a tool to get out of debt. They offer excellent lifetime customer support and free upgrades for life just to name a few. Microsoft doesn’t give away office products for free and if you think that going online to find free downloads is safe? Think again. You get what you pay for and when you think it’s free, it’s not. Nothing in life is free. Joe can throw in all his christineese talk to make him sound like he really cares, but if he was a true christian he wouldn’t be spending his days blogging trying to hurt a company who is trying (although to his disbelief) to help others. What’s wrong with that? You made your point, said your peace, yeah, you don’t believe in the product, move on. Why would you want to cause other people to fail? Really, what if you WERE wrong? I know you will say you’re not but you are only human and not perfect. There are people on the program, using it and getting out of debt so what’s the big deal? Why beat them down? How can you say it is not helping them when they are the ones paying their bills. Is the success of this company’s product threatening your livelyhood? You should be happy for these people and not beating them down by implying they are stupid with your big fancy words. Yes, there are many ways to get out of debt and pay off your mortgage. That’s obvious. But not all ways work for all people. Just like weight loss. Some can do it through self discipline and others need other methods to help them but all methods can work. You can go on and on and spend hours repeating yourself over and over saying the same things. If you really knew what your purpose for existance was you wouldn’t be spending it here. Open your bible and find your real purpose and stop causing other’s to stumble in their walk in life. And to RTL, hats off to you. Sorry you have to waste your time trying to convince joe but sadly no matter what you or I say may not change his opinion. As they say, let the dead dog lie and keep helping those who want to be helped. Peace out!
Lin, are you and RTL the same person?
Neither of you talks about the numbers, how MMA fails to beat any kind of do it yourself prepaying, and neither of you know about the return key to help form paragraphs.
I am only human, agreed. I tend to be wrong on some more complex things. The fourth grade math required to disprove this system is something I am confident I understand. Do you?
When I talk about God, why do you make the logistical leap that I am Christian? The fact that I cite RTL’s constant blasphemy shouldn’t be confused for my own beliefs.
Although I am intrigued by “faith based mortgage acceleration” which is how I see RTL promoting this scam.
Joe
JoeTaxpayer,
Have you been through a demonstration or presentation of the MMA product or are your comments just based on your research?
I’ve suffered through 2 online seminars, as well as multiple iterations of the canned video presentation. The one from which I was able to screenshot enough details to easily show the flawed math.
Then, I was given access to the UFF site witch shows 3 months of the ’sophisticated algorithms’ in action which confirmed to me that MMA uses a random number generator to decide how to pull funds from one’s HELOC.
What is your experience with this? You’ve not posted here before.
(I tried posting yesterday and got no confirm, or ‘pending’ sorry if this is a dup)
Thanks for the response JT. And no I have never posted on here before, but I did read all of the above postings. I also recently sat through the online presentation and thought it was interesting and wanted to see what people’s experience with this has been. And from what I understand, the software CAN save you years of mortgage payments but it is also something that the most disciplined individual can accomplish. The reason I say the most disciplined individual is that if you are juggling money between mortgage – bills – and unexpected bills – and whatever else really, you have to really be on top of it. And if you cannot juggle it ’safely’ then it might be a good idea to get the software. Does that make any sense?
Deeman – MMA cannot predict an “unexpected bill.” For the $5000 heating system, it will simply draw on your HELOC. The math behind it is no more complex than a spreadsheet. In fact, it’s worse for the fact that it doesn’t properly maximize the potential HELOC savings. You can let the agents convince you that this is far far more complex than it is, but that doesn’t make it so. Here are the rules to follow for minimum payoff time:
1) Pay minimum payment due on all debts.
2) Send any extra money to the highest interest account.
3) Repeat next month.
Sorry, I know people want to first convince themselves they have an impossible task, then pay $3500 to solve it. This isn’t rocket science, just a well promoted scam.
Can the software help me to pay my mortgage when I was just fired like today?? Joe can you hire me??
I have read the comments. What the program does is help people stay on course and discplined. Why do people use any technology, convience. The progran takes the guess work out of the equation. I know you can do it yourself Joe good for you. Tiger woods can shoot 65 any day good for him. If everbody was as disciplined and as smart as you.Then why do 10% of the people control 90% of the wealth.Maybe it’s not only about knowledge.Maybe the discipline the program encourages does help people. Yes, I do own the program and it is not about the numbers. I see what the effect is of future purchases and how much things actually cost.The Knowledge and discipline one attains is worth far more than 3500.00. When life changes I enter info. and it recalculates instantly the most effiecient use of my money given my current situation. No opinions or historical perspectives.Just real time math. Technology at its best,same math and technology banks use to make us pay more interest daily.
All truth goes through three stages. It is ridiculed:then it is radically opposed:and only much later will it be accepted as self-evident. u1st is in stage one.Need to start somewhere just like,cell phones,online banking,computers ect. People what to be more effiecient and most will pay the price.Why would anyone pay for a blackberry when they have a computer at home? They justify the value and pay the price.Value is the point and you Joe have your opinion of value which is drastically different from mine on this particular subject. I am a owner of the product your not. I give more value to the person who has climbed the mountain over the person who says they know how to climb the mountain and will tell me how to do it.Thanks,but no thanks.
Mary,
No, the MMA can’t help you in that situation. Your mortgage balance may be smaller than it would otherwise be, but that will be more than offset by the extra debt carried in the HELOC or (even worse) credit card.
You are better off keeping some money aside for emergencies. Some say 3-6 months worth of living expenses. This is your best short-term defense against lost income or unexpected expenses.
Deeman,
There is more “juggling” involved with the MMA than without it. Without the MMA, there is one fewer account to worry about, and 3500 extra dollars in the original accounts.
The “juggling” is then just to pay all your bills at the end of the month, then send everything over your preferred contingency amount to the mortgage as an extra payment. This simple formula also adjusts every month, automatically.
There is no case where the MMA is safer, less work and more efficient than simply sending your extra money to your mortgage every month.
Micheal, so well said! Finally someone is really getting to the real value of this! One more thing to add, you can pay extra towards your mortgage every month but do the math, you will only end up paying your home off in 21 yrs or 20 yrs. People are paying their homes off and completely debt free in only 7 to 12 yrs average. I don’t know about you but I would pick this technology over paying extra to my home every month and not knowing where i am in interest coming againts me every month on my debt and mortgage. My parents are saving $262k in interest on their mortgage on this program, again, if your CPA said give me $3500 now and your home and all your debt will be paid off in 7yrs or 10 yrs and I will give you back $262k along with that……..hmm, I think I would make that investment in myself don’t you? Please Joe Taxpayer, really get on the program and than start talking because like Michael said, you can’t tell people how to climb a mountain or how to golf a good golf game……….people will listen to you when you actualy do it. You need to stop misleading people and come on, people are not going to double up on their mortgage payments every single month until they pay it off, most people don’t have that kind of money and especailly in this finacial crisis. I know people that lost their jobs now but they had been on the money merge account and cancelling so much interest on their debts and mortgage that they were so far ahead of the game so they are still ok without the job. It all depends on each person’s situation and everyone is different.
Michael – of course agents give more value to their own postings that those of naysayers. You also appear to value words and rhetoric over numbers and proof.
PTL – if one pays as much to their mortgage as the MMA program assumes, nearly twice their required payment, of course they will pay their mortgage off early, a bit faster than MMA depending on the many variables.
One thing that’s clear, agents need to get friendly with their spell checker and grammar checker. I’ll sell you both for $3500.
Joe,
If yor definition of a scam is you can do it on your own and it is not worth 3500.00. Here we go. Why pay Stock broker, Real Estate Professional, Golf Professional, Money Manager or any Professional service. You can can do all this on your own, must be scam. You may get a better result that’s why. So the discussion is not about a scam it is about VALUE. Question, who decides what something is worth? The person purchasing the item or service. So each individual’s definition of Value is Different. People purchase things everyday from 80,000.00 BMW to 2.00 coffee. I would not pay 80k for a car. BMW must be a scam, although many people pay that price without question. Because it has VALUE to them. Ask Tiger Woods what his clubs are worth . He will probably respond with a question. Look at my record and you decide. What are his clubs worth to him?What is the VALUE to Tiger, Millions! Some u1st clients say The Money Merge Account is worth 50,000.00 to them. Have they been scammed?No.They purchased something that has tremendous value to them. For someone to decide how valuable something is for someone else.Would be like me telling you what your children or pets are worth based on my opinion and research. Seriously, would my opinion of your children’s worth change your mind ? Hope not.
Bottom line VALUE is individual. So are opinions.
Apparently you know more than Ernest & Young who awarded them the Entrepreneur of the Year Award for 2008. And apparently you know more than Success magazine who featured United First in a whole issue. And apparently you know more than Personal Real Estate Investor who also featured them in an issue. And apparently you know more than all the very happy people who have saved tens of thousands of dollars in interest. You may actually want to do some research before you publish your next opinion.
I love to hear what nasayers like yourself have to say. I am on the program, have been for 18 months now. I am a very skeptical person. This program works and there is nothing like it. Call me and lets do a analysis for you my friend. I have saved 54 payments that I will not have to make to the bank already. Will pay off my home in 10.5 yrs compared to 28. I have little money left over every month and have not changed my lifestyle. I have already received 1000 times over my investment. Lets see if you can do that. The cost of the program is way under what it actually should be. Open your mind just a little and live out of the box just a little. Would you not want to help people instead of telling people the non truth. Dave Ramsey has nothing over this and is very out dated. I know I did his too. Hope to hear from you. Have a great day
“Ernest & Young”? Are they related to Delote & Touch?
E&Y knows nothing about UFirst – they just sponsored an award. Ask them.
And yes, we know more than those rags you listed. UFirst pays them more than they pay us, though.
Well, Anon, instead of getting off on BMW and Tiger Wood tangents, why not address the fact that the sales pitch of MMA is full of not exaggerations, but bold faced lies, and falsehoods. The math within MMA is flawed fro the first month, when it directs the user to pull far too much out of their HELOC, so the HELOC interest spent is more than the mortgage interest saved. This is directly from the UFirst videos, not from any example contrived by me. Their product is so bad, UFirst’s own example can’t help it.
Donna, yes, I do know more than all the others you cite. Thank you for noticing. My mom is very proud. Now, about that scam…..
I am new to this site researching the MMA program. I attended a seminar recently and decided to research this before making any decision. I am not an agent for UFF.
After researching the program, it is quite clear a person can pay off their mortgage quicker by doing it by them-self; in my case, by about 2 months, and not pay anything for a program. It would appear the main complaints about this program is it’s a scam, it doesn’t work, and it’s too expensive. Quite frankly, what I can determine is the program does work. It will show me how to pay off my mortgage early in the most efficient way. Apparently the “scam” comes in because it is MLM and therefore, by default, it can’t be worth anything. I will admit it is rather pricey, but as one poster stated, if a homeowner can pay off their house early by following the program where they otherwise would not have, then perhaps the program is “worth” it to them, regardless of the price. Yes the agent makes a profit on the program but what salesperson doesn’t? How much profit does your insurance agent make each month on your insurance policy? Over a 10 year period (new mortgage term), it’s probably more than $1000.
When I had my analysis run, they showed me I could pay off my 10 yr mortgage in 4.2 years saving me over $21K in interest, including the cost of the program. However, this would be accomplished by applying ALL discretionary income towards the mortgage which I was not comfortable doing. I asked them to run an analysis with NO discretionary income applied and it changed it to 5.1 years. Still a considerable difference from 10 years and still saving around $18K in interest.
In analyzing the program, what it is doing is applying your 2 or 4 extra paychecks each year to the mortgage, thereby reducing the principle balance. Yes, an individual could do this on their own but in all reality, when those “extra” checks come, they are spent on other “things” and not applied toward the principle. Where I see an advantage to the program is it gets the individual to start with a weekly budget and sticking to it (or at least try). For example, my weekly budget for my weekly expenses such as food, gasoline, entertainment, hobbies, etc. is $300/wk. By using the program and depositing all my paychecks into my HELOC and draw out my weekly expense plus my monthly expenses as needed, it would keep me on that budget. When my “extra” paychecks come, I would not spend it but rather it would be applied to the principle by default. This could make an individual become more disciplined than trying to do it on their own. I know I have $300/wk for my budget and my monthly expenses are paid.
Other posters have stated to just add extra principle each month to the payment. This is sound advice, however, most people don’t have that extra money to apply to the mortgage each month or if they do, they spend it elsewhere figuring another $20 or $40 against principle isn’t worth it. The bi-weekly program isn’t bad but many people find it hard to give up that “extra” paycheck to the mortgage. That’s not to say they would with this program either. ANY program takes discipline and if an individual can’t stick to it, NOTHING will work.
Another advantage could be this program will analyze ALL debts and determine which debt to pay off first based on balance and interest rate. JoeTaxpayer says to pay off the highest rate debt first which may be sound advice. However, if you owe $500 at 15% for one year and $10,000 at 10% for 10 years, the 10% rate may be the best one to pay down first as you are paying more interest per month on the lower interest rate debt. Does the MMA calculate this? From what the agents say it does. I’m no financial genius so I would have no idea how to calculate this and I seriously doubt if the average person could do this as well. Since I only have my mortgage, a zero interest car loan, and my HELOC, this feature is not a benefit to me.
Posters have indicated Excel, Quicken, and other programs can do this. I have Quicken and all it will perform is an amortization schedule without the ability to apply different monthly figures as added principle in the schedule, only a set amount each month. Maybe other programs will. I do like how it will recalculate your payoff with a future debt, say a new car in 2 years. I could punch in a figure and it will give me then new payoff date. I don’t know of any other program that will do that, but I am not familiar of all the programs out there.
Another plus could be the free customer service and budget advice, and free upgrades. This could be a benefit for some people if they need to call customer service on a regular basis. The free upgrades could be beneficial, especially if the program has added features in each upgrade.
Another aspect which no one has addressed yet, is that the true cost of the program may be less than $3500. An example would be if you have a mortgage that you can pay off 2 months sooner using a free spreadsheet vs using the MMA program. If your mortgage is $1000/mo, then the actual cost of the program is $2000 since the cost of the MMA is already calculated in the payoff (added as a debt in the HELOC in the beginning). This is still pricey but not as much as the $3500. If I am wrong in my thinking here, please let me know. And should you purchase another home, the program transfers to the new mortgage and it starts again (I think they said about $100 fee).
I am trying to look at this objectively. Yes, it is very expensive and in my case, probably isn’t worth it. However, I can see where this is a beneficial tool for some people who might otherwise not be able to stay on an accelerated payoff schedule without it. It may be “worth” it to them. It is not a scam and the program works but it’s not for everyone. I believe too many posters are too quick to chastise this program without objectively taking in all the different aspects of the program. They seem to look strictly at a simple amortization schedule and use that as a comparison against the MMA. If that is all the debt you have then doing it yourself is an obvious conclusion. However, if you have multiple debts with varying interest rates, the MMA program MAY be of value to the individual using it, even at $3500. Individuals need to assess their own needs and determine for themselves if it is worth it or not. I do believe some of the agents are misrepresenting the product and performing ridiculous analyses misleading potential clients as to their true savings. Unfortunately, there are people like that in every field.
Brent – I am less focused on the fact that this program is MLM than others are. I do focus on the scam aspect. The fact that all agents buy into the hyperbole which to some is simply clever marketing but to me, is lies. Let’s look at your own words. “I asked them to run an analysis with NO discretionary income applied and it changed it to 5.1 years.(from the 10 remaining)” Really? You go on to talk about the “extra paychecks.” If one makes $1000/wk, their monthly income is not $4000, but $4333. If you’d like to give the MMA software credit for creating that extra $333, that’s up to you. So when an agent produces any savings at all with no discretionary income they’ve made a mistake. Some will say they are doing this on purpose, me, I’m more benevolent, I think they are too ignorant to even understand their own entries into the program. And no, the $3500 isn’t really part of the plan, you are actually spending the full $3500 plus interest, so that if I spun the numbers to prove my point, it would be a cost of nearly $20,000 including interest costs.
You go on to say “JoeTaxpayer says to pay off the highest rate debt first which may be sound advice. However, if you owe $500 at 15% for one year and $10,000 at 10% for 10 years, the 10% rate may be the best one to pay down first as you are paying more interest per month on the lower interest rate debt.”
Well, my reputation precedes me. You quoted me correctly, but think my advice faulty? Given the choice between paying $100 extra to the 15% rate vs the 10% rate, of course I’d pay the 15% first. I have no idea where your logic leads on this one. Think of it this way – the $10000 can be spread among 20 cards, $500 @ 10% on each one and that one lone card, $500 @ 15%. Now which would you pay first?
The true secret to MMA is to first convince you that it offers some magic, like paying your mortgage off faster with no discretionary income. That’s simply false. Then they go on to suggest that the math is so complex that you cannot do it on your own. You know why? Because no one will pay them $3500 to get the advice “pay all debt’s minimum payments and send all extra money to the highest debt.” This rule works for the credit cards and the mortgage. Works every time.
You are welcome to click on my name and go to my MMA links. Right up top is both a spreadsheet that you can see will perform the same math MMA does for free, along with a 60 page compilation of my MMA writings. I debunk every aspect of the program, top to bottom.
The math involved is not beyond 4th grade. So when I say I know what I’m talking about, it’s not bragging, I don’t even claim to be smarter than a fifth grader.
BTW – an honest agent will tell you, no discretionary income, no savings at all. The HELOC shuffle does not provide enough savings to pay for the program, I proved that in one of my later posts. The series ran 32 weeks before I decided I had enough.
“Payoff your mortgage with little or no lifestyle change” grabs people’s attention. Many agents claim that the more debt you have, the faster you can pay off your mortgage. WHY?
Because MMA will “steal” your monthly payment from you and apply it to your mortgage, to the exclusion of everything else.
If you are paying off a debt, you’ve already dedicated part of your monthly income to this debt and adjusted your lifestyle accordingly. MMA knows this, so if you include your debt, MMA will borrow from your HELOC to pay off your debt. MMA is now free to apply ALL YOUR DEBT PAYMENT to payoff the HELOC and the mortgage. So, even after your original debt is paid off, this debt payment will be applied to your mortgage, instead of letting YOU use it for something else.
As Joe has stated, you can do all this on your own, by paying down your highest interest rate debt first.
There’s no magic here or fake “combinatorial arithmetic”.
JoeTaxpayer,
I am not arguing your logic on paying the highest interest rate debt first providing the terms (time to pay off) are the same. What I am saying if you run the numbers, you MAY be able to maximize your money by paying a lower interest rate debt first vs a higher rate depending on the length of term. For example, you have an extra, one time $100 to apply towards one of your debts. You owe 1000 on a credit card at 18%, which you are going to pay off in one year, and a 10 year, 10,000 home improvement loan at 10%. The CC debt payment is 91.68/mo with a total interest payment of 100.16. If you apply an additional one time 100 to that debt, you would pay it off in 11 months with the last payment being 65.95 and a total interest of 82.75. You would save 14.41 in interest, one month of a full payment, and 25.73 on your last payment for a total of 131.82 in “savings.”
However, if you applied that same $100 to the HI loan which is 132.15/mo, you would pay the loan off 2 months early with a savings of 167.32 in interest, 2 months of payments, and a partial month payment savings of 3.01 for a total of 428.61 in “savings” with a net result savings of 279.91. If you were to actually maximize your money, you would place your extra money on the lower interest debt.
Now, if you had a choice of paying off the CC entirely, it would free up 91.68/mo to be used elsewhere. If you are on the edge with your budget, it would be prudent to free up that money and use for weekly expenses regardless of the savings. However, if you were able to make the CC payment for the entire year, it would be better to maximize your money and pay it on the HI loan as you would pay off the CC in one year anyway, freeing up that money to use elsewhere. This is where the MMA program COULD have benefit or value to the consumer.
The spreadsheet you have is a great tool to use for a simple amortization for the home mortgage. It also allows varying additional principle payment each month to calculate the payoff date. What I have yet to see is a program that incorporates ALL your debt with varying interest rates, varying terms, and different minimum payments and then calculates the most effective way to pay it off. When you say to take your highest interest rate debt and pay that off first is basically correct. Then take that money and add it to the next debt and so on. All I am saying is the MMA program MAY actually maximize the effectiveness of paying off debt, calculating the most effective use of your money, which could save hundreds or maybe thousands of dollars in interest.
You are also correct in saying the extra paychecks ARE discretionary income and using those extra paychecks towards principle will pay the mortgage down faster, as the MMA account does. The point I was trying to make is when a person gets on a regular budget and sticks to it using the MMA program (or any program), that person would not notice those extra paychecks being applied to the principle as they would if they had to physically write those 2 or 4 checks each year and pay it them-self. Would the average person rather have $10 taken out of their pay weekly towards savings or write a $40 check once a month (actually it would be 43.33)? I believe most people would opt for the deduction weekly knowing they may never put the money away otherwise. Once they get used to their take-home pay, they forget about the weekly $10. This is why I believe the bi-weekly system fails. People have a good intention to put it against their mortgage but eventually stop because they use the “extra” money elsewhere.
I am not advocating the MMA program by any means. I was trying to find info in a non-biased way. There appears to be some good features of the program as well as some bad ones, the cost being the biggest downside. Yes, you can beat the MMA software every time by doing it yourself if you are doing a simple mortgage amortization. However, if you have multiple debts with varying interest rates and terms, it may not be as easy. This is what I was referring to when I said I don’t have the financial savvy to figure it out. If you know of a program that will do this plus allow me to factor in future purchases/debt (car, education, etc), I would like to know about it, as would others. The MMA program MAY be more effective in calculating the most efficient way of paying off debt than trying to do it myself, but the price most likely will not outweigh any potential savings.
Brent,
I appreciate your civility, and the complement.
I see what you’re saying regarding the loans, rate vs duration, and I do follow the math. The issue is one of cash flow vs present value.
I can drop it down to a simple example. $100 sent on day one to the mortgage (6%, yada yada, classic example) will immediately save you $500 interest. Right? ‘But’, it will only save you $10 if you send it to the 10% card which is paid off in one year. This is the fallacy of mixing rate, duration (I mean length of loan, not bond ‘duration’ which has a specific meaning to the rocket scientists) and minimum payment due.
I agree that one can (and UFirst did) manage to present this is such a complicated way that it appears incomprehensible. On the simple side, it gets real easy. $100 sent to a 6% mort saves $6/yr but $10/yr sent to the card (at only 10%).
The concept of paying off say a 10% card to ‘free up the payment’ to then pay the higher rate card is part of the fallacy, ignoring the time value of money and true simplicity of this issue. The only exception to the rule of lining up the rates, highest to lowest, is the fact that the mortgage and HELOC are usually deductible, and therefore need to be adjusted with a factor of (1-tax rate). But since those rates were likely the lowest rate anyway, for 99% of people the order doesn’t change.
The truth is this; I can create spreadsheets for multiple cards at different rates, but they need to be customized to the individual. The sheet doesn’t change anything, just calculates the payoff time. This should be the shortest time period compared to the next 8-10 years of aggressive mortgage payoff. The effort really isn’t worth it.
The ‘extra paychecks’; Let’s be clear, this is ‘your’ money. When an agent enters $4000/mo, even though you told him you are paid $2000 bi-weekly (I’ll be kind) he is making an honest mistake. The software, which I’ve accessed, has a entry to tell it you are paid bi-weekly. Bi-weekly ‘does not equal’ Semi-monthly. Someone trying to say he has no extra income each month, yet finds that extra $333 when the agent runs the number will still have no extra to send and the projection will fail. This is an agent error, UFF actually handles that entry, but it must be entered correctly. I’ve seen many agent analysis where this exact mistake is made.
When you ponder the error, you find it’s exactly the same as jumping to a bi-weekly mortgage which cuts your loan to about 22 yrs from 30. Being objective (which is tough for me) I’d think that agents would want to be careful not to make this mistake, it creates an expectation based on flawed numbers.
I read the rest of your post, and see your point, that if the money is not available, sent all to the HELOC, then it may not be spent. That may be, I’m a numbers guy, not a psychiatrist, but I’d still suggest that this would be no different than one simply getting a HELOC and running their money through it.
Keep in mind, if you’ve seen my sheet, you know where to find my 60 pages where I compiled all my posts. In it I walk through how the MMA does not calculate optimum HELOC withdrawals. I use their own presentation, and software to show this. The one thing it should do to justify its value, it gets wrong.
Brent,
Your one-time payment example is incomplete. After you pay off the credit card debt, you must take the 131.82 in “savings” and apply it to the home improvement loan, since this is money you would have paid if you applied the $100 to the home improvement loan instead. Now, tell us: Which scenario is cheapest?
PAYING OFF THE DEBT WITH THE HIGHEST INTEREST RATE IS ALWAYS THE BEST WAY TO PAY DOWN YOUR DEBTS, from a financial point of view. And it makes no difference how many debts you have, when you start paying them, what the balance is, or what the term is for each debt. You don’t need “financial savvy” to figure this out. You seem to want MMA to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.
Please search for “debt snowball.” You will find lots of info about it. It is the proven way to pay off your debts. And what is best, ALL YOU NEED IS PAPER AND PENCIL.
Brent,
Your one-time payment example is incomplete. After you pay off the credit card debt, you must take the 131.82 in “savings” and apply it to the home improvement loan, since this is money you would have paid if you applied the $100 to the home improvement loan instead. Now, tell us: Which scenario is cheapest?
PAYING OFF THE DEBT WITH THE HIGHEST INTEREST RATE IS ALWAYS THE BEST WAY TO PAY DOWN YOUR DEBTS, from a financial point of view. And it makes no difference how many debts you have, when you start paying them, what the balance is, or what the term is for each debt. You don’t need “financial savvy” to figure this out. You seem to want MMA to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.
Please search for “debt snowball.” You will find lots of info about it. It is the proven way to pay off your debts. And what is best, ALL YOU NEED IS PAPER AND PENCIL.
Careful, James. Debt Snowball suggests paying lowest balance first. If that makes people feel good, fine by me. But it’s not the ‘fastest way to zero.’ The irony is that usually the best rate cards offer the lowest credit lines.
I have been a real estate agent and loan officer for 20 years. For a typical refinance the average homeowner pays between $6,000 and $12,000 in fees and taxes to put themselves further into debt and the average American does this every 3-5 years. To sell a home the average person spends between $6,000 and $20,000 for an agent to stick a sign in the yard, the property in the mls and a few hours of running offers back and forth. Here is a company that has developed a financial GPS that can save Americans tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in interest and have them completely debt free in a third to one half the time, and yet people complain a $3,500 investment is too much! Not to mention the company offers a lifetime of customer service at no additional fee or monthly charge. I am baffled.
JoeTaxpayer,
I do realize the “extra” paychecks is my money and it’s the reason the mortgage payoff is accelerated. My point was the psychology of I’ll say the “average” person would be once they set them-self up with a budget, they may not notice or miss those “extra” checks throughout the year. Where this creates a problem is when people rely on those checks to put towards a vacation or some other high expense project or item. Then this would not work for them.
One of the other problems with the program is it does not take into account the difference between weekly and monthly expenses. Monthly expenses are based on a 48 week year while weekly expenses are based on 52 weeks. While you may be able to “skip” 4 weeks a year towards monthly expenses, it would be difficult to not buy groceries, gas, or the other weekly items in that same time frame. This is not calculated in the MMA analysis. Even if you were to run the analysis with no discretionary income, as I had, it still would apply those extra checks in their entirety thus lengthening the reported payoff date.
James,
I see your point regarding applying the savings to the other loan which would certainly make the higher interest rate a better choice to maximize the payoff schedule. I was just running the numbers to indicate that paying off the highest rate is not always the most efficient use of your money, especially if you are freeing up that money (or part of it) to use towards monthly living expenses that may have increased since the budget was first set up.
As I previously stated, I am not a fan of the MMA program. I came here to see if there was something I missed or did not think of while analyzing the program. It appears to be a good program… if it was say $100 . Even if it was $500, it may be “worth” it to someone who may not otherwise be able to accomplish their goal any other way.
As for me, I’ll stick with my first reaction and stay away from the program. Thanks for your input and advice and doing it in a civil way.
Regards to all,
Brent
Brent, indeed, the program expects a budget to come as monthly. Which is hardly the way real life works, as you point out.
Trying to break out of the circle regarding highest rate – consider that there are two kinds of debt aside from the mortgage and HELOC, the fixed time, such as student loan, car loan, etc. and the revolving, credit card type. Given than one could always charge more on the lowest interest cards, even after their payment just took, for budgeting purposes their payment due is zero, just the interest needs to be accounted for. A $10000, 12% balance is $100/mo interest. So long as there’s (say) 18% cards with balances it makes sense to use that 12% card. Aside from offering that thought, I still don’t see your point regarding paying off lower interest debt, you are still mixing the issue I cited prior.
To poster named “doesnt matter”;
The statistics you cite are meaningless. As rates dropped, I refinanced 4 times all at zero cost. Are you suggesting that when one can save on their rate, they shouldn’t ‘do the math’ and determine if it’s worth it to them?
What baffles you? We’ve discussed here how MMA is not worth $0. The system is flawed, provides no value at all, and lags the rule,”pay all minimum payments, then send all extra cash to the highest rate debt.”
Instead of offering rhetorical remarks, why not discuss the fact that MMAs very first HELOC withdrawal creates an interest cost greater than the savings of the early mortgage payment. And no, you don’t get to claim that $100 sent saves $500 by projecting out 30 years. The math needs to be done at the margin, that in month 1, the math is already broken.
Then you can address the specific detail that even if the software were programed correctly, the HELOC shuffle cannot produce a savings to cover its own cost. I’ve proven this using the UFirst software and the example scenarios on their site.
If you are still baffled, I suggest you get a refresher math course. Fourth grade math is all that’s needed. What baffles me is that anyone with the skill to earn a wage high enough to buy a house can still be innumerate to have such math be beyond their understanding.
BTW, you an agent? Your post was the template that many agents use, citing statistics, reaching for credability by claiming long years of service in a real estate and/or mortgage related job, and then using the term GPS. Sort of a cut and paste. Would you like to share any original thoughts?
JoeTaxpayer: I disagree. The heloc shuffle can you save you some money, depending on the interest rate of your mortgage and the interest rate of your heloc – not much but a little. It’s certainly not worth $3,500 to use this method, but for those who want to go that rout it can save a few dollars a month. To each his own.
Kevin, my post wasn’t quite clear. The HELOC shuffle ‘can’ produce some savings, in the classic example it should be about $12.50/mo. But the actual MMA software doesn’t even produce that savings. It overborrows, bloating the HELOC balance and interest cost far more than a really, er, sophisticated algorithm would calculate. I am among the top google hits for Heloc Shuffle and discuss it at length in multiple posts.
JoeTaxpayer: I’m curious. How were you able to refinance 4 times with no up front cost? In my checking around I have found no one will let me refinance at no cost. Its anywhere from $1,700 to $2,500.
At the time, the ‘no point no closing’ deals were slightly higher than the regular rate. But that made the decision easy as rates were falling. So, in the interest of disclosure, I’ll tell you that I am at a 15yr 5.24 loan with about 7 yrs to go.
I now see ads for 30yr/4.99% NP/NC. They are there if you search. Why don’t I refi one more time? Because current bank doesn’t offer this rate, and I have a HELOC with them that’s P-1.5 with a 2.5% floor. I recently got this, and prefer to not give it up. Its only cancellation clause is for missed payments or refinancing the first mortgage (or a list of things like the house burning down and me ‘not rebuilding’). I read the fine print.
JoeTaxpayer: I don’t know how you got 4 refi’s with no up front cost all lower than your previous rate. That’s pretty incredible especially since you’re now at 5.24 on a 15yr mortg. I can get a 15yr refi at 4.625. It will cost me about $1,500. IYO is it worth it? My current 30yr rate is 5.3. Also who is this poser who claims he’s been a loan officer for 20 yrs that says it costs $6-12,000 to refi?
Well, not knowing your balances, there’s one approach that come to mind:
Do the math, using your balance, but the time left on your current mortgage, along with the new rate. That will tell you the money saved each month, and time you need to break even.
At .675% savings, you should recoup the $1500 pretty quick, I’d think.
My mistake –
4 NP/NC loans, the original and 3 refis.
For what it’s worth, this is the history;
30 year 7.625 (Apr 1996)
30 year 6.75
20 year 5.65
15 year 5.24 (Mar 2004)
The payment is lower now than originally, since when I dropped to the 20, I threw some cash at the mortgage. I don’t have the 2 middle dates, I just happen to know the original closing, and have a spreadsheet with current mortgage details. You can look up the rate history and see the tradeoff between the rate I paid and the lower rate you could get with points and closing costs.
I don’t need a computer program to tell me that if I dump an extra grand into my mortgage each month, I’ll pay the thing off faster. My mortgage is my only debt & represents a third of what my house is worth. I have NO other loans.
We have had this program touted to us by my friends wife who has been pumping this thing in order to make a commission on her end. This is nothing more than a fraudulent pyramid scheme.
I am sorry but after that totally wrong comment on the system and paying $1,000 every month to your mortgage, I have to step in and really show you the truth and that you know nothing about this system or how it works or you never would have said something so off the mark. Everyone try to listen to logic and the power of this system without thinking you know what you know is right and correct and try to listen with an open mind.
That is why people get on this system, they DONT want to or can’t pay an extra $1,000 towards thier mortgage to pay it off early. With the system there is no paying extra to your mortgage and taking your money every month and every month for 10 or 15 yrs to pay off your mortgage. Why would you want to do that? YOu know that if you make that $1,000 extra to your mortgage ……you have to commit to that every single month and not miss a month in order to hit the goal of paying it off in the timeframe you calculated. What if life changes, what if your income goes down, yoiu miss out! So let me explain some simple math to you. If you have a $200,000 mortgage at 6% 30 yr fixed and you do a bi-weekly payment you would end your loan at about year 24 or 25 and save about $49k approx of interest. If you pay an extra $200 per month on that loan every single month without missing a payment you would end that loan in year 21 and save approx $69 to $75k in interest. The same loan and family on this system, the money merge account will end their loan at year 13 or 14 and paying off a car and credit cards and being totally debt free…..all without paying extra payments every single month and committing to that. It is not about paying extra per month on your mortgage and debts, it is about making strategic funds transfers to principle at the exact time the system says to do it, to the exact debts or mortgage it says to pay it to, and the exact amount to the penny the system says to pay. The system won’t tell you to do it every single month. It is about paying larger chunks of money at certain times and not every month because that does not effect your amortization schedule as much and drive you down years earlier and saving the most interest. I don’t think any of you talking badly about this solution really know what you are talking about or are definately on the system or you would not be saying things that are so off the mark and not true. I am tired of defending something that is working for tens of thousands of people in America and has for the last 5 yrs and the real loan concept this whole idea comes from and is based on is from Australia and the UK and the BAnk of Scottland offers it and most of Australian banks offer it as a “Loan” and it has been paying people’s homes off in 15 and 7 yrs and saving an average of $150k to $250k of interest over the last 15 yrs!!!!! Its called the “One Loan” or HOme Loan Excellerator”. Go look it up in Austrailian banks web sites or the UK, you will find it is very common for people to do this so why can’t AMerican’s do it with a system they don’t have to refi into or pay those closing costs? They can now!! ITs proven! It is not a scam. I know , i am on it and my family and my friends and our mortgage clients dont refi anymore and pay those closing costs you all are paying, they only pay the $3500 for lifetime license and they are soooooooo happy to pay that investment into their lives because our average client saves $200k to milliions if it is on a commercial loan or business loan and that is worth $3500 investment to stop the DEBT and interest that is going against all of us every day and become financially free and start building wealth for once in our lives! This is not only a debt reduction and interest cancellation tool, but now they have included a wealth building tool so you can build wealth while you get out of debt. Tell me we don’t need this tool in our lives with this financial crisis and the government getting us into more debt and our children! You all just dont’ understand that you are in a trap of debt and interest and if you want to stay in that trap and pay the interest and payments to the banks then go ahead, but i am here to tell you ……YOU DONT HAVE TO ANYMORE! There is a better way and we have found it and many others have and they are getting financially free! I guess you all dont’ know much about how banks make money or they cancel interest and make interest on your money do you? They use THIS SAME CONCEPT and banking tools for years now and they don’t want you to know how to use this for your own benefit. BANks are only here to make money and they do a great job of it and they make it on your money using these tools in the treasury dept,……..something that you and the normal consumer would not know about or think to know or ask about. So now YOU can use the same bankiing tools and this is it people! WAke up!! The banks and lenders and credit card companies are the “Warden” and YOU are in Prison, DEBT Prison and a 30 yr fixed prison on your home. Do you think if you walked up to the warden that was getting paid by the state to keep you in jail, and you asked him how to get out of jail earlier…….that he would tell you how to get out of jail earlier? He gets paid to keep you in JAIL. Just like the banks and lenders and credit card companies get paid tons of interest to keep yo in your loans. ARe you startiing to get the picture here? This company that researched this solutioin in other counttries and their success is a blessing to all of us, not a scam. They thought the 401k was a total scam and illegal when it first came out. But we all know how that turned out dont’ we? THis will be the same thing soon Well recognized and well used in every household in America and other countries. Please dont’ be blinded by people’s opinions anymore and by the internet. It is the devil’s playground and any tom and harry or faceless nameless person can blog lies and his opinions………but I dont make my decisons by bloggers or internet. I do my real due dilligence and I did before our mortgage company started offering this amazing powerful solution to all our clients and family and i see it work and the clients coming to me daily telling me wow, i never thought this could be this good and so much interest cancelled and paying off my home in 7 yrs or 10 yrs or 13 yrs and some in 5yrs.
The proof is there. I see it everyday and it is changing lives whether you all choose to see it or not, but i hope you really do check it out, it is well worth it.
PTL – you continue to ramble but offer no data, just more hyperbole. Prison? If one’s payment is so high, they are in prison, then the system can’t work for them, they have no extra funds each month.
Hugh said it best, and he has the math skill to understand that prepaying beats MMA every time. Clearly, all MMA users don’t understand simple arithmetic which is why they fall for this scam.
As Calvin posts, MMA = egg timer. I might add, it’s an eggspensive one.
There’s no need for non-MMA users to refi if they have a good rate, and they don’t need to commit to any fixed number, just send extra to the mortgage each month.
You do deserve kudos though. I’ve not seen anyone offer the amount of rhetoric you do, it’s just an amazing ramble. Paragraphs, my misguided friend.
until you get on the money merge account JOe and you tell me that it does not work for you……….I am not listening to your bull anymore. I checked your web site out and we did some research on your blogs and you and you have an agenda. I am not rambling at all. I just said exactly the truth and go do the nubmers. I am really tired of you misleading people and your comments that have no value or truth to them. YOu really don’t know what you are talking about at all by your statements that are so off base. Get on the system and then you can talk from what you know and not just from what you “think you know” have a nice day, im done with this.
PTL – you can’t cite where I am misleading, because my math is shown, over and over. I summarized my writing and the PDF runs 60 pages, all with UFirst’s own examples.
My agenda is to save people from a scam. I offer a spreadsheet to help them, for free. I’ve been offered money as thanks for the help, and I refer them to their nearest homeless shelter. Yes, RTL, that’s me doing the devil’s work. I don’t “think” anything. I know what I am talking about and back it up with numbers, not rhetoric. Enjoy peddling your scam.
TRTiL,
Joe makes an eggcellent request. Show us where he is wrong. Show us, with calculations, why the MMA is so much faster and better than simple prepayments. Show us, with calculations, why it is worth $3500.
Until then, all you have to offer is a wall of text, and a $3500 egg timer.
Wow, I only stumbled upon this blog by accident when I googled, “money merge scam canada”. Up until now, I was only relieved that I wasn’t part of the fiasco, but now my wife is getting the hard sell from one of her best friends & she has a propensity for not being able to say no!! So now I am a bit more vigilant.
Dear RTL, what can I say???? A mere 63 minutes passed since I posted & you were on the web. A week had passed since the last post, yet there you were in an instant!!!!!
I can only imagine the fear & panic that must set in among your peers when an unknown poster strikes?? What’s the scenario there?? Do alarms go off, lights flash, do you go to defcon three & muster the troops??? I can only surmise you are the head honcho in this pyramid scheme & for every “client” you enlist, you exact a toll. Am I getting warm?
Now before you defend yourself, let me tell ya that I’ve had the online video presentation. All those questions that made filling in the forms that much more personal, so that when my name appeared on the screen, it would somehow arouse my interest. So, I’ve had the spiel!!! Strangely enough the guy who organized the presentation seemed rather disappointed that we weren’t laden with more debt. NO car loans, NO credit card debt & was even more put off that we had a rental property. Strange as it may seem, we’ve come this far without a $3500 computer program. I’m at a loss for how we accomplished this on our own????
….and I’ve seen the “pay structure”. If this isn’t a pyramid scheme I don’t know what is. If you are unable to navigate basic math, if you don’t understand compound interest & how it applies to your mortgage, you are likely too dumb to own a home & this whizzy computer program has a better chance of serving out its life as an expensive beer coaster.
To Joe Taxpayer. I applaud you in your efforts to enlighten people. Keep up the good work!!!!
yes i am on my email daily at work and i get a notice if anyone writes on that blog so pretty easy to know when someone submits a message. Its not magic, but thank you for all your sarcasm. I understand what you are saying but you are really wrong and not well informed at all. I will just say a few more things , but not to defend the system or the company but to just clarify a few things that you got wrong.
First, it is not a scam or pyramid. Check all the highly credible sources that advocate this solution and researched it and proved it works. Those companies are Ernst & Young, KPMG, Broker Banker Magazine, Mortgage Planner Magazine, Personal Real Estate Investor Magazine etc and many more. KPMG actually signed a contract with the company and bought the licensing rights to offer it to thier clients in 5 differnt countries and in 5 different languages. One of the largest banks in the nation, probably your bank you bank with, about 1 year ago offered to buy the company and product. So please don’t tell me that these banks and top 3 accounting firms in the world and Mark Victor Hansen, NY Times Best Selling author of Chicken soup for the Soul book series who is on the program saving $500k in interest on a 4 million dollar 4 plex …….all of these professionals and important companies and people in the finacial industry as well, are all part of a “Big Scam or Pyramid scheme”. Mark Victor Hansen has chosen to represent the company as the nationwide spokesperson because this is the most important company and product in America right now he said. Glenn Beck of CNN Headline news also has said that this company and the money merge account is going to change the financial landscape of America. I just have to tell you that these people and companies tha are very reputable are not going to advocate this and say these statements if it were not the real deal and it did not work. OH , forgot , you would also have to pay off all the tens of thousands of clients that have paid this money and gotten on the program for the last 4 yrs now because if you do your real homework on a product and company you should look at the better business bureau and check with the Consumer Affairs dept and Attorney General’s office. If all these clients were not happy and it was not working for them and they were not seeing results…….dont you think that there would be thousands or hundredsd of complaints? yes , there would be so please realize what you are saying and trying to make people believe is a down right lie of your own making and your own ignorant opinions. Have a nice day, im done with people that have no basis for their opinions and dont care to do their research better to find the real truth.
RTL,
HA HA HA, HO HO HO.
Thanks for the laugh. All those magazines you quoted are vanity magazines, where they write great stuff about you so you advertise in them! But why didn’t you include Consumer’s Reports and Kiplingers that told people not to buy MMA or its ilk??
Ernst & Young?? All you have to do is go to the top of these comments and read how unreliable the awards is — as quoted by its own people! Beck is a paid shill and Hansen probably doesn’t know how to balance his own checkbook. Neville Chamberlain was sincere, too, and was so surprised that Hitler lied to him.
The people that bought the MMA have no clue how it works and certainly aren’t equipped to say that MMA is better than doing it yourself. They are financially undisciplined, mathematically illiterate, and intellectually lazy.
If you throw cash at any loan, you’ll bring down the principal faster than normal and save on interest. The scam is not that MMA doesn’t work, it’s just that it does worse than doing it yourself and agents like you lie about it.
Agents love people with debt payments, because MMA will “steal” these payments, apply them to the mortgage and magically show how quickly the debt can be paid down. You don’t need a magic algorithm program to do that.
Hugh – I appreciate the complement, this blog does offer the email alert, so I am guilty of the quick responses as well.
PTL – I am considering yet one more page on my blog (note I stopped my regular Thursday series a few weeks back as I was sure 32 weekly posts would cover the topic) summarizing your drivel.
Most of your current posts include meaningless data and references that are unsubstantiated. An endorsement by the Queen of England is meaningless if it’s paid. Glenn Beck speaking at a convention of scammers should not be confused with an endorsement that means anything. He was a paid speaker. Do you understand that? Pepsi sponsors the superbowl, but that doesn’t mean they support a particular team.
What is truly amazing is that no agent can answer the simplest questions about MMA. They enter the data wrong, clicking “bi-weekly” when the client just said they are paid twice per month. Wow, there’s money you can send to MMA.
The fact that you continue to talk about the savings as though it came out of thin air and not the clients own pocket is what I find most disturbing. It’s clear that you do not understand the system. Tell us, PTL, if a client has no extra money per month, how much can MMA save them? Can it even save its own cost over 30 years? UFirst’s own software told me ‘no.’
Last, tell us how for someone with the magical $1000 extra per month, how is that “no change in spending”? It used to go somewhere, no? Maybe to a matched 401(k), maybe to a serious crack habit. Either way, my (free) sheet beats MMA every time. By $3500 plus interest.
My 10yr old has a joke – “If you call a dog’s tail a leg, how many legs does the dog have?” 5? “No, 4, you can call it anthing you you want but it’s still a tail.” It’s still a pyramid scheme, and a scam. And I can prove it, with numbers. You know what they are, right?
YOu know what is funny and so sad about people like you and JOe the taxpayer……you only listen to yourselves and bloggers on the internet. If you took all the magazines and all news reports from NBC News who did a test on our system and many many other credible sources that have tested it and said they are all wrong and clueless………you still could not dismiss the fact that KPMG , one of the Big 3 accounting firms in the nation bought the licensing for all their offices in 5 different countries and in 5 differnet languages to offer it to their clients. Why would a firm like that spend that amount of money to buy a scam or something that did not work and doing it yourself works better? Why would one of the top 3 banks in the nation offer to partner with the company and offer it to their clients if it did not work or it was a scam or you could do the same exact thing yourself? Why would 40 of my clients who are on it not be complaining that they wasted their money when I get calls every month from them saying, they are looking at their amortization schedule the bank gives them and are 3 yrs ahead of what they would have been if they just paid extra money on their mortgage every month or threw money to it and all their debts? Why? Because it works and you are an idiot or just very closed minded if you can sit there and say what you are saying that makes no sense at all. These are experts in this field. YOu know BAnks and treasuries have used this type of technology and systems for years now to make more money on YOUR money. So now this company and solution is able to be put in the consumer’s hands in order for YOU to make money and cancel interest like they do and you are not seeing it for some reason. I am sure its because you are not on the system yourself. GEt on the system and then start talking from experience and not from what you think you know. ITs funny because I have said some very valid points and referenced some very important highly accredited companies that know this works and have researched it and proven it works along with all the other clients on it across the nation so I really don’t think you listen to truth and “Facts” so I really don’t care to waste my time any further. OH, one more thing, you ignorant comment about magazines that support it, the industsry magazines that brokers, banks, lenders, CPA’s, Investment bankers, Donald Trump, all subscribe to for good factual information about the technologies out there today………..well they would go out of business if they had all these cover stories and articles on a company like UFF and they were a scam or it did not work. Why? Because I guess you are not aware of how they operate and stay in business are you? NO you are not. They only are in business because of subscriptions paid by consumers buying them every month so wouldn’t it hurt the magazines and their revenue if they supported and wrote factual articles on a solution or company that was not who they say they are and was a scam and you could do this yourself? The answer is Yes. I don’t know who you are or what you do but you certainly don’t sound like you are in our business, which is the financial and mortgage lending arena because you really don’t know what you are talking about and neither is Joe I assume. I have been in wholesale banking, mortgage lending, network software and we owned a very successful mortgage company for years and my husband is an ex engineer who worked with teh courseware and developed software for Microsoft for years and people like us don’t get involved in offering a product that will not work better for our clients than if they did it themselves and is a scam. We are 100% referral and we would not put our clients or family into a solution or have them pay a dime if we did not do our due dilligence and research in the right way to find out everything about a product that we needed to know in order to approve it for our clientelle. I am not one of those agents who pushes the product like your wife has going after her, but thy are out there, but there are a ton of people like that out there in the world, greedy and don’t know what they are talking about, but they are in every single profession you can name, especially sales. Sorry you had that bad experience but don’t let 1 agent help you decide that this is a scam and rob you of your financial freedom because people are out there getting healed financially every day. If everyone could do this themselves, then why didn’t they by now? Why is America such in a financial crisis? Its because of over whelming DEBT and INTEREST on that debt that we pay every month and every month and can’t get out of the cycle. Think about what I said here today. It is the truth and I don’t care what you say or what you think you know because I see the truth everyday in my clients lives and my families lives. Sorry you are going to be left behind and anyone listening to you.
Anyone have a Reader’s Digest version of that stream of semi-consciousness?
First PTL promised to walk away, which wasn’t my goal. I wanted her to address specifics, simple ones as in “why doesn’t MMA perform better than a sheet someone can write in a few hours?” or “what value do you attribute to HELOC shuffle instead of the clients own prepayments?”
I also kindly suggested using the tools available, you know, spell checker, dictionary, etc. The first thing she should look up in the dictionary is paragraph. I can no longer read these ramblings. They are filled with rhetorical questions really having nothing to do with MMA.
If she were truly a ‘good’ (in the religious sense) she’d learn how to help people without scamming them, and then directing them to “give back” once their finances were in order and debt paid. I saw she wrote Trump up there. Will MMA cure his hair issue?
This is silly. IF KPMG licensed the product (any proof, anyone?) it’s because the product is profitable for anyone SELLING it–they wouldn’t be the end user, they saw the opportunity to make money hand over fist by hawking it to people willing to fork over $3,500 for a calculator!!
Geez RTL, the picture is becoming clearer & clearer every time you put your fingers to the keyboard & start rambling.
There seems to be a religious theme to your argument, like you want to summon up an artificial deity to get the message through. Good luck with that!!!
Your credibility slides further into the gutter with your work history as a mortgage lender & wholesale banker. It is people like you who put mortgages into the hands of people who didn’t qualify, all the while collecting those tasty fees & now you want to prey on those same people with a bogus computer program.
You and your ilk should be ashamed of yourselves!!!!
You really don’t know what is going on with the crisis or how it happened do you? It was not people like us or all mortgage brokers or banks, only the greedy people in the industry and the greed on Wall Street. We did very good loans and all A paper so keep your comments to yourself until you know what you are really talking about. It was also so much more than you even can understand unless you are in the business of finances and this industry. It goes so much deeper than bad loans sorry to tell you. People like you should not speak if they don’t know or understand the crisis or what really happened. I dont think some banks and mortgage brokers or loan officers could bring down the whole economy and financial system. Please , you have to be smarter and more informed than that. ALso, my comments are not meant for any religous reason, but to just tell people that DEBT and Interest against you every month is a form of bondage to the lenders and banks. You and so many people that write on these blogs are so ignorant of what is the truth and what is not, or maybe you just are normal and the normal general public does not understand really the tools that are out there for them to use that the banks use to make money on your money every second of the day. I think that is sad that you don’t understand this concept and that there is a way for you to bank like a bank. I hope you are happy with your debt and mortgage because you are missing the fastest most effective way to pay it all off and you are going the slow route.
RTL – As an engineer it just occurred to me, the expression to describe your posts is that your “signal to noise ratio” is very low.
I copied all of your post here to one document and found 16 pages, that when printed, contained no useful information, nothing to be learned at all. Just now you told Hugh he doesn’t understand the origins of the current banking crisis, but give no hint that you do, nor attempt to enlighten any of us.
I am going to close this post with one question -
Potential client comes to you, standard classic example 6% 30 yr new mortgage, 200K. But they only have $200/mo extra. That’s it, they are paid monthly and expenses do not include any other debt at all, zero. A) how much time will MMA save them using that $200, of course taking the $3500 into account, and (B) they tell you their 401(k) is matched dollar for dollar on the first $500/mo deposited, they currently depot $300/mo. Are you going to answer this straightforward question, or are you going to babble on, as you’ve always done?
TRTiL,
I’ll go out on a limb and say you’re not a mortgage broker. First, you can’t write to save your life, or your scam. You don’t appear to even have high school English under your belt, and you don’t appear to be ESL, either. Second, the financial nonsense you’re spouting is all from UFirst training and marketing materials – you don’t show any signs of having a real financial education. Maybe mortgage broker standards are slipping.
I stumbled across this blog and I must say its amusing. Joe Taxpayer, on 5/23 you stated “As interest rates dropped I refinanced 4 times at zero cost”. I’m really curious as to where you acquired your vast knowledge of mortgage and finance because your a gem. A person with your intelligence, I’m surprised that you still even have a mortgage because anyone can do what the MMA can do and payoff their mortgage faster on their own…right? Everyone on the planet knows that when you refinance you restart the clock and start paying almost all interest again on your loan. Take a look at your amortization schedule, it sounds like you have a few to choose from. It takes about 6 years before you even really begin to scratch away at any principle. I’m just curious how much money in interest you handed over to your lender before you got the bright idea to refinance and start this repayment fest all over again. Still think it didnt cost you anything to refinance? It cost you plenty pal. Thats a pretty ingenious system you’ve got there. Refinance, send your lender a bunch of money in interest for a couple years, then do it all over again. You are your mortgage companies favorite type of customer, their robbing you blind in interest and you dont think it cost you anything. “As interest rates dropped I refinanced 4 times at zero cost.” Theres only one zero in this post and his initials are JT. Folks, if you dont have a clue what your talking about, save yourself the embarrassment of talking about it on the internet. If you have never used a product and you dont understand how it works, then you have no business shooting your mouth off about it to other people. If its a scam and a pyramid scheme then why havent federal investigators moved in and shut these people down? In these times and in this day and age I can assure you they would move in pretty quickly over something like this if it was’nt legitimate. Why is there not one single complaint with the Better Business Bureau against these people? If all of these people are getting ripped off why isnt it on the news?Why is there not one single person who is actually using the MMA on any of these blogs saying anything bad about it. This program has been out since October of 2006 now…..please JT….show me one single person who is actually using the MMA that is not absolutely ecstatic about it. There are about 200,000 clients now nationwide…..show me one……thank you. BTW, interest rates are down to about 4.625 now…..maybe you should refinance?
TBA – Nice to meet you. You don’t know me, and you don’t understand mortgages. You must be an agent.
To set the record straight, I had a typo. I am on my 4th mortgage on my current house, all 4 at No Point, No closing. 3 refinances.
My history is: 7.625%/30yr, 6.75%/30yr, 5.65/20 yr, 5.24%/15 yr. So your assumption that they were all 30 yr was false. But even if that weren’t so, so what? By dropping the interest rate, it would be my decision to do what I wish with the money saved.
The first mortgage was written in ‘96, and the current has 7-1/2 yrs to go, so it will be just about 20 yrs total. Before you shoot your own mouth off about paying in 10 yrs on MMA – life happens, a baby on the way, I chose to start to fund a college account, and continue our matched 401(k) deposits. These accounts now total far more (about 5X) than what’s still owed on the mortgage.
Your leap to judgment betrays your own innumeracy. If an MMA user has an X% mortgage and can refinance at X-anything% no cost, they’d be better off doing so, regardless of duration. Go from 6% 15 yr to 5% 30 yr, so what? Wouldn’t your MMA continue on the same path, sending the extra money to pay it down? On what planet is one ‘not’ better off refinancing to pay less interest if the cost is zero? On what planet do you advise that one ignore their matched 401(k) in favor of prepaying 5-6% money?
200K? Yes, I believe there are that many innumerate people out there. You know, Madoff had very happy client for decades, but that’s just a tangent, as is much of the rest of your post.
Given numbers for average income, saving rate, etc, I’m curious how many of MMA users are anywhere near the classic example, having 20% of their net income to apply to their mortgage. Not impossible, of course, but not bloody likely. In the end, a maniacal focus on killing off one’s mortgage is a personal choice, but for me, it wasn’t the top priority. I’d be far behind in my retirement saving had I done that, and I actually sleep better knowing the college account is fully funded.
Over the years, my saving rate has been near 25%. (Not rate of return, but the percent of our income saved. More than one agent has accused me of claiming the former, which reflect more on their reading skills than my writing style.) But it’s been my choice how to allocate it.
As far as the federales are concerned, they don’t need no stinking badges. There are BBB complaints, and they are growing.
Why don’t you answer my one question offered to RTL above?
TBL & RTL
It’s funny how lying MMA agents keep trying to “poison the well” by claiming that because we don’t use the program, we don’t know how it works. Technically, NO ONE KNOWS HOW IT WORKS, IT’S SECRET ROCKET SCIENCE THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR US MERE MORTALS TO FIGURE OUT, LEAST OF ALL, IGNORANT USERS AND AGENTS. NO ONE CAN DO THE MILLIONS OF CALCULATIONS OF COMBINATORIAL MATH!!
You can’t have it both ways. We do know how it works because some of us are rocket scientists, too, or wannabees, at least. And we have posted model after model, all over the Net, showing how it is impossible for MMA to overcome the extra $10-20,000 in extra interest it costs a user to use it. In fact, the longer it takes to pay off a mortgage, the more MMA costs.
MMA users are the worst reference for MMA because if they knew how to take care of their money on their own, they wouldn’t have paid for an electronic babysitter to tell them when to pay their bills.
You can tell it’s the koolaid drinkers that keep harping about paying all that interest on a mortgage while ignoring the returns on savings and investing. The most ignorant ones keep saying mortgages are front-loaded and use compound interest.
Your right JT, I dont know you, and I dont want to know you. There are some people that just need a venue like this to create attention towards themseleves and make themselves feel important….you are one of those people. For your information, I happen to be an Escrow Officer with a major title company. I’ve been in the mortgage industry for more than 12 years now, I think its safe to say that I have more knowledge about the mortgage industry than you and your followers could ever dream about. The concept of mortgage acceleration is not a new one, it has actually been very well established in Australia and the UK for more than ten years now. Heres some news that might surprise you my little friend. There are currently over 31 million people using a mortgage acceleration program similar to the Money Merge Account worldwide. Everyones heard of Richard Branson, the multi-billionare and owner of Virgin Airlines. He developed something several years ago called the Virgin One Account. It was a mortgage acceleration program so successful in the UK that the Royal Bank of Scotland bought the rights to it from him and they’ve been marketing it all over the UK ever since. Let me guess, all 31 million of these people worldwide are just stupid….and your the only smart one. Let me guess, Richard Branson is a scammer….The Royal Bank of Scotland is in on it too….Like I said, if you dont have a clue what your talking about you should’nt be giving other people financial advice about their mortgage on the internet. You can beat your chest, jump up and down and tell everyone what ever you want but this is the 21st century and mortgage acceleration programs are something that are here to stay. They will only begin to evolve more and more as time goes on. You can either accept them and embrace them or reject them and continue with your own primative, out dated and ineffective financial strategies. So JT, please tell our listening audience about your mortgage background. Please give us some information about yourself, please tell us what on earth qualifies you to give people advice on the internet about their mortgage besides the simple fact that you happen to have one, we are all listening….
Just like your fellow scammers, you quote statistics that are neither here nor there. Meaningless.
My qualification? I passed 4th grade math, aced it in fact. That’s what makes me more knowledgeable. Why not answer the one question I posed above? Can’t you do even that? I’ve written 60 pages on this scam, can’t you address one easy question?
All the names, all the references are meaningless, the numbers speak for themselves. I may very well be a fifth grader, on the internet no one knows who you are, but the Kool-aid drinkers are pretty obvious. The mortgage industry is tainted, not a bragging right.
Funny, the first Google (after a wiki entry, and ad) was a review “It’s simple logic as I see it… The Virgin One account is great for “The Bank” and not so great for “The Borrower”…”
What do you know? By the way, I am not little, and I am not your friend. You parents teach you how to address people?
TBA, is RTL your alter ego??
31 million?!? So where do you get your made-up numbers? From Obama?
Here is a link that tells the story for the Virgin One account: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_One_account. Beware, though, it reads like an advertisement. This is nothing like MMA, as you have the ability to put money in and take it out, very similarly to the CMG account. And if I lived overseas, I’d be using these accounts, too. But these accounts were developed for places where the mortgage rates are variable, not fixed like ours. And without safeguards like CMG, your mortgage rate can increase tremendously.
TBA, your qualifications in the mortgage industry are worthless. My wife is a settlement processor, which is similar to an escrow officer. She has been doing this for 25 years and she can’t tell me squat about mortgages. But she knows how document the sale of a house, deal with lawyers, buyers, sellers, banks, title companies, mortgage brokers, and realtors to get the documentation she needs to fill out the numbers in HUD-1s, and create settlement packages so the settlement officers can do their job. She has done pre- and post-processing, too. My wife knows how to add, subtract, multiply, divide, calculate percentages, fractions, and pro rata rates. Anything above simple algebra eludes her.
My qualifications? I have a degree in Mathematics and Computer Science. I am self-schooled in Finance. I have derived and programmed the formulas and algorithms used to calculate mortgages, future and present value. I have created spreadsheets that duplicate MMA’s own video example, showing how it costs more money to use MMA than simply do it on your own. I have other spreadsheets that let people make their own payoff projections. I can hold my own with these so-called rocket scientists.
After reading a bit here I think I have this figured out. It sounds like uneducated and uninformed folks have been sold a bill of goods that gives them a dream of better days ahead. The highly educated number crunchers rebut their mistake-ridden claims and poorly worded arguments, dashing their hopes and re sentencing them to their hapless state.
Joe, most everything you say makes financial sense but why would you choose to fund a college account? All it does is limit the amount your children can access from federal and state financial aid. There is also an enormous amount of private grants and scholarships that are available every year. I have four kids who have graduated from college, three in private schools and one at a state university. I have paid nothing for their education and neither have they. I admit, you do need some savvy but the money is out there. And yes, it does take more than a fourth grade education.
Kevin – our income is high enough that I’d not get a dime for our one child. When I say “College Savings”, it’s a combination of a 529 account for a portion, but the bulk is in a trust that actually doesn’t count toward the college aid as it’s a separate legal entity. It can be used for school but there is no requirement that it does. It’s an estate planning tool more than college per se. But it was my decision to do so, and MMA doesn’t care what estate taxes are or whether any tax deferred strategies should be considered.
Joe: You are so right. This money merge system does not anticipate any tax strategies. It’s an overly hyped and worthless mortgage prepayment program. But I do challenge you on your decision to fund a college account because you believe that your income is too high for your kids to access federal and state aid. Too many people think that and miss opportunity. There are a number of strategies you could make use of to capture that free money. If you choose to pay for something you can get free that’s your choice but you definitely don’t have to.
Kevin, I used the term “college account” incorrectly as I was trying to make a point. Around the house, I don’t say “trust fund”, cause I don’t want my 10 year old to either get the wrong idea, or to repeat it to anyone.
I am open to whether or not this was the right way to go, but the account was set up more with an eye toward the estate tax issues than college alone. I don’t claim to be an expert on this, and the laws do change a bit.
Home equity is considered when applying for Financial aid. So one can find they have a fully paid house (as MMA would direct) and, to your point, lose any (or some) aid they might have gotten.
I haven’t studied the aid numbers in some time, but the topic would lend itself to a good article on my site.
Same here. My daughter is 2 and her (Canadian) Registered Education Savings Plan will allow her to pay for any school she can gain admission to, but I’m rather hopeful she has her mother’s high 90’s admission grades that resulted in full ride scholarships through her PhD, instead of her father’s…umm…slightly lower grades.
Besides, if she does get scholarships, goodbye “trust fund”, and helllooooo sports car for daddy!
Home equity is considered only if the home is in your name at the time of application. There are many strategies for getting at this. It depends on how you look at things and what you are willing to do.
A lot of people will give you a place to live for the temporary tax advantage they can receive if the home is in their name. Then you get to count what you would have been making in payments as expense even if you are paying ahead on your home. The legalize will secure your ultimate and eventual ownership. It’s just a paper transaction.
There are many other strategies I won’t get into here related to how you file your income tax, how you claim exemptions, and where you put your money. All are used by many people and all are credible. But you probably do need more than a fourth grade education, lol. So the money you will spend for your childrens education could easily have been saved or spent by you instead. I guess if you choose to save and spend for a product that keeps increasing in cost you can do that. Or you can learn some things and do a little work and pay nothing.
Of course you should also consider the thousands of private scholarships available that are not needs based too. It does take some work but millions of dollars go unclaimed every year simply because no one applies. One of my sons got $20,000 from Wendy’s for writing a simple essay. Another got something for being lefhanded. The list goes on and on.
The correlation to the money merge system is that you can pay for something you can get free if you choose but it makes no sense. $3500 is $3500 and anyone who spends that to pay of their home early is nuts. It didn’t make sense to me to pay for my kids college education either, which was a heck of a lot more than $3500 so I did what I needed to do to avoid paying any tuition for them and to keep them from educational debt. I also saved a lot more than $3500.
Kevin (from sat 6/13) -
Thank you, you inspired me to research (again) how college financial aid is calculated. I’m writing a post which may help my readers who have children. In my own case, income alone excludes us from aid. Not complaining, nor bragging. Just a fact.
Just curious about the program and have a couple of questions
If I have bad credit and already have a scecond mortgage will this program work for me???
It doesn’t accelerate your mortgage like you can without it, for free. If you’re stuck with higher rate loans and credit cards, your results will be even worse, and that extra $3500 in debt isn’t something you need, either.
Talk to a credit counsellor. Get yourself on a plan. Do not pay $3500 and go deeper in debt thinking that this is a magic pill solution, because it isn’t.
Patty: If you already have bad credit why would you add more to it by spending another $3500 you don’t have? Think about it. Don’t talk to a credit counselor either. They will just consolidate your debt and put you on a financial plan you won’t maintain and you’ll just wind up in the same condition you are in now if not worse. Talk to a licensed psychologist who will help you get at your root problem. Otherwise all the financial counseling you get will be worthless. Don’t pay for that counseling either. You can get it free from many places.
Patty, as Craig stated, you can do it yourself.
You first need to get a grip on your spending. Then, simply send extra money to may off debt highest rate first. There is no better solution than this advice we are offering.
Patty, if you’re thinking that MMA will magically create money for you to use to pay off your debt, forget it. MMA’s “magic” comes out of your pocket. MMA lies when you are told you are “using the bank’s money”
As everyone has said, stop spending more than you make. Search for “debt snowball” on an idea on how to pay off your credit card debt and second mortgage. Look into getting a second job to pay off this debt. Look here, http://www.daveramsey.com/, for an idea on how to start.
RTL – On June 9th, I posted a question. Pretty easy to answer for anyone running an analysis for a potential client. Your postings run dozens of pages when compiled to one document. Are you now too busy to answer that one question left for you?
I’ll repeat it to spare you the scrolling back:
Potential client comes to you, standard classic example 6% 30 yr new mortgage, 200K. But they only have $200/mo extra. That’s it, they are paid monthly and expenses do not include any other debt at all, zero. A) how much time will MMA save them using that $200, of course taking the $3500 into account, and (B) they tell you their 401(k) is matched dollar for dollar on the first $500/mo deposited, they currently depot $300/mo.
Are you declining to respond? And if you do respond, please answer the question, and avoid any biblical references, if possible.
HI Joe,
So sorry, been very busy. I will answer your question and without any biblical references.
If they have $200 left over like you say in your example, then the money merge will pay off the home in 14.7 yrs. and save them about $165k in interest. One important thing to note……..they will NOT have to take that extra $200 and pay it down to their mortgage every single month. This is about strategic payoff and timing, not having the client pay an extra $200 per month or any amount extra per month every single month. I hope that answers your question. Now one more thing, we know life changes and it is not static so that payoff with a lot of our clients is actually a lot less most of the time, more like 12 or 9 yrs payoff depending upon their situation, and some it can be more if something happens to the income or it goes down a lot or they lose their job of course. That only makes sense either way.
Ok. Thank you.
My TI BA-35 shows that when the payment is bumped to $1399.10 (additional $200 to mort) the number of years till payoff is just under 21.
More curious is that when I plug in your 14.7 yrs till payoff, I show a required monthly payment of $1709 or $510 extra vs the $200 we agreed to apply. Would you like to double check your numbers, and advise? This is quite the difference from what I’d expect.
I understand what you are saying JOe and you are correct I am sure with your normal way and process of figuring this all out, but I am telling you that this is not a normal or conventional way of paying off your debt and mortgage. YOu can’t possibly get the 14.7 yrs with your method because it is not the money merge account system with their math engines and hundreds of pages of code that they developed to run this dynamic and not static system. You don’t pay an extra payment of any kind every month like you are saying. Our clients make strategic principle payments at strategic times in the year and that affects thier amortization schedule in such a way that makes more of their “NORMAL” monthly payment go more to principle rather than interest driving them down their amortization schedule more rapidly and shaving off many more years than it would just making extra $200 payments per month every single month without missing any payments. This also saves the client thousands more in interest as you can see the results. Now to get these results you would have to put all the figures you are working with into the money merge account system. Now I can show how to get these accelerated results, but we need to input the numbers into the actual money merge account system demo. Let me know if you want me to do this for you. I really want you to understand this and I know it is such a different concept but it works and people are doing it across the nation, hundreds of thousands of clients including me and my family so its proven as well. YOu seem very smart and you are probably top in what you do, but there is a better way and we are showing people it everyday. People are banking like a bank now and not giving all that interest they dont’ have to pay to the lender anymore making them rich. I hear what you are saying but please hear what I am saying. There is nothing like this in the world and we have no competition.
Ok. Let’s say we look at the most extreme possibility, that you can keep my $5000 earning 6% throughout the month. This is logically the most that can happen. That’s $300/yr or $25/mo. Not $310. Of course I can’t get that 14.7 yr payoff, nor can you. I suspect if you ask this exact quest of 5 agents, you’ll get 6 different answers, some of which contain errors that are obvious to me, such as ignoring that I said the other $300 goes to the 401(k). (Did you grab that? that would account for most of the difference?) or agents who enter bi-weekly (26 checks per year) instead of semi monthly (24 paychecks per year).
Do you really believe that by managing a $5000 cash flow one can create $3700/yr of saved interest?
HI Joe,
All I can tell you is that yes, you can achieve that payoff time of 14.7 yrs or sooner with the scenario you talked about with the $200 discretionary income. I am sorry, but I can’t read through all your emails with differnet factors of this going to 401k or bi-weekly paychecks right now. I am really busy, but I can tell you that the proof is there and our clients are printing out their amortization schedules every month and seeing their interest saved and months and years come off their mortgages and debts and that is proof enough that they are on the schedule that their money merge account says they are on. You really need to just get on it and try it……its a money back guarantee so what do you have to lose???
I wonder what other agents are telling their clients. Because when I enter the numbers into the MMA software, changing the example scenario to reflect $4800 in expenses, and just that $200 extra income to fuel the system, it tells me 20.17 yrs to payoff. Which leaves me with two points. Would agents sell so many systems if they were competent enough to enter numbers into boxes accurately? Are all agent so innumerate that such a difference 14.7 vs 20 doesn’t stand out as some kind of error? You want the screenshots from the MMA software? I’m happy to post or forward via email.